and don’t sit here and pander to me about how easy white people have it. because a couple black people got beat up were instantly got the upper hand? what about the gangs that kill thousands of white people every year. what about the families who have to cross to the other side of the street because thier afraid for thier lives to go to the other corner. What about the hundreds of children that die every year as a result of stray bullets from drive by shootings. That if anything that seems white motivated is in threat of a lawsuit. what about that case that surpreme court nominee sotamayor just rulled that it was racially biased and that employers need racial quotas (luckily it was overturned by the surpreme court) but still. what about forcing our schools to teach spanish to our kids instead of teach spanish kids english because they have a right to keep thier cultrual herritige. FUCK THAT!!!

and i’m sick of people who go “ooo poor gays they can’t marry” then move to a state that alows it. move to a country that will allow it! if america is so bad stop bitching and go somewhere else. as a result of prop 8 being passed the gays decided to go to war with the chuch of jesus christ of latter day saints (mormons). they attacked several churches. some by where i live. they defamed private property, broke windows, and put up thretening signs. even though we had nothing to do with the vote in utah when it took place in cali. two gay people were making out on church private property, they were asked to leave. they got beligerent, so they were escorted out. then on sunday there was a protest by a mormon church where they had a kiss out and yelled obscenities. this is the agenda i’m supposed to support. people who go to a place where people worship god with thier little kids and families, and shout obscenities and lude, crude, redicioulous comments. you tell me, is that right?

I don’t like socialized medicine for the fact that it is not right to make me pay for someone elses hardships. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be something there to help people who are trying to make ends meet, have a crap load of doctor bills, and are up to thier neck in dr. bills. but i thought that was what welfare was for? but they need to fix it. first stop giving it to illegals, second, all people need to be currently employed to get it. Third, they can only use the welfare money for certain things. food, rent, or utilities.

The majority also doesn’t know how much government is already involved in health care through subsidiaries to insurance companies. Not to mention Medicaid and Medicare. If they did they might not be so gung ho about universal health care as run by the bloated bureaucracy we call the government.

“fact is a lot of kids are denied education becuase of the fault or simply BAD LUCK of their parents.”

Denied education? How? Even the poorest school districts have, well, public schools. How are you defining the word education? If you have said “quality education” then I’d say you had a valid statement.

“Poor people are never going to get out of their situation without something to help them.”

Agreed but I see the solution in being more accessible entry level jobs that have a more level starting wage. What people, especially teens, need are jobs that give them skills to advance to higher paying and more rewarding jobs. There are, however, major barriers to this.

“Less poor = less crime”

Let me introduce you to the relationship between local, state, and federal law enforcement and poor communities. That marriage was officiated by politicians, who is both parties’ parent. There are powerful groups that stand to lose quite a lot if everyone is given a level playing field.

dude, this is such a dangerous mindset, you throw out this line about a pandoras box from gay marriage, and yet this mindset about other peoples human rights is how the worst things in the world have happened, not realizing that one persons rights end where another persons begin.

its also weird to you pull the majority rule thing and then complain about UHC when every US polls says the majority want the government to be involved in more coverage, and Canada France Britain etc would all riot if you took it away from us. So its one standard one minute and then trying to win based on the strength of the opinion the other.

You also missed the point about looking at other nations entirely. The point is that the US is making slippery slope arguments about gay marriage that were already brought up in other countries before they took action (leading to multiple spouses, etc) which have not happened and show no evidence trend of coming into fruition. No increased demand for any of the other horrors that would supposedly result.

You act as if the law never addressed or considered the ’slippery slope’ and what equality means. The equality is reached when marriage is open to any two people of straight or gay sexual orientation. Stuff like incestual marriage, multiple spouses, etc does not get opened because those doors are equally shut to all people of all races, genders and straight-or-gay sexual orientations. The law keeps those things into an entirely different category so no legal precedent is made. They also insured that religious institutions would not have to perform then against their own will, something I’ve seen religious groups claim would happen.

So all you have are hypotheticals and rhetoricals that are getting weaker and weaker every year as the countless other countries with gay marriage neither get struck down by the hand of god nor cause straight divorce, etc.

And besides, if you actually believe the ‘majority rules’ then if the majority wanted incest and bestiality, I guess by your standard its suddenly acceptible?

NOW….

I’d rather you stop changing the subject to your racial pity party. But if you are trying to convince me a white person’s daily life in America is more difficult than a black person’s, or a gay person’s, then I recommend you throw on an earring and a scarf and pretend to be gay for a week and see what happens. You have absolutely no idea of the ordeals my sister has gone through in her life for being gay, who is by no means any sort of stereotype and does not even throw it in peoples faces. Her hardships have far surpassed losing out on one job or a hundred jobs, I promise you.
So please spare me the hypothetical “soandso could get a job before me!” line, because I can throw countless real life real experience examples back in your face of people I’ve known who were discriminated against, fired, or for that matter, beaten the fucking tar out of – for no reason other than their race or sexual orientation. In fact, when i was 16, I myself was attacked and beaten with skateboards down the road from my house by two kids who thought I was gay. Once again, I believe if you think you have it so tough as a white person, you take your skin color for granted and all the advantages it gives you in this world – even if sometimes in one place or another you may get treated unfair. You say ‘majority rules’, if you apply that to race then you are saying to me you are entitled to extra by nature of your race. I say you are absolutely not.

Here’s all I want to say about hate crime laws and AA.

Hate crime laws – I’m against them, you might as well watch the South Park episode on it, I feel they made their point well. but I’ve not paid close enough attention for a good long time so maybe theres some example out there someone could present for me or better explanation of them.

AA – I am in favor it if it is based on class. Poor people are never going to get out of their situation without something to help them. Without addressing these situations you only continue or worsen the cycle and further divide the classes. As much as I admire the ‘pull yourself up by your bootstraps’ attitude of the States, fact is a lot of kids are denied education becuase of the fault or simply BAD LUCK of their parents. Bad shit happens to people who did nothing wrong and who worked hard all their lives, who saved up but got sick or injured and lost everything. Who lose a parent and become instantly poor. Too many act as if poor people are all choosing to be this way, but they dont account for simple luck and realistic fate. AA is at its best a pragmatic decision for the betterment of society, and not just a handout. Less poor = less crime and even a healthier public and a number of other things tied into that web. It is for many of these same reasons that I support UHC and would join my fellow Canadians in rioting if they took it away.

Once again, I am sick of people who act as if something given to someone else is something that is being taken away from them. America is one of the most charitable nations towards other countries, but at the same time it seems to be so caught up in their own rat race that they become selfish and blind to the benefit of helping others, that in the long term it does indeed come back to you. They stick this ‘american dream’ carrot in front of your head that so many of the powers that be are trying to prevent you from ever reaching, hoping that instead you will turn on each other and blame each other for not acheiving it. They are succeeding at this game.

I don’t know all there is to know about the separation between states and federal when it comes to laws, but it seems to me that human rights in regards to the constitution is inherently a more judicial decision, and that when it comes to human rights you don’t put them to a general vote where the majority can automatically deny equality to the minority on their whim. It violates the constitution (I’m pretty sure) and to me again, is fascistic/bullying. The judicial branch exists for a good reason.

When each state has its own constitution though, there are a number of really stupid things that get written into those constitutions that deny equality. There are 7 states that have it in their constitution that an atheist cannot hold elected office (and in some cases even be a juror/witness). Do you believe this is not bullying? Wrong?

My eyes are rolling for a number of reasons, but see my final sentence for a specific reason why.

Even if they are the minority within their own city (in fact, over half of Toronto is non-white immigrants), when I hear the majority race of the country – Christians or whites – act as if they are being oppressed, I just shake my head. I dont relate to people who sponge off the accomplishments of their own race (and that goes for any race) rather than their own, and I can’t feel sympathy for people who think being the majority race earns them the right to enforce their will on the minority. I could acknowledge certain cases where there are ‘reverse racism’ but in the grand scheme I think these people don’t realize how lucky they are to be white in North America, and the many benefits you get from that every day that you take for granted. I think most of us are really really really spoiled and selfish.

I see no rational reason to believe the Pandora’s box argument, especially when other countries have done this and are just fine. If there is a fear that its going to spread to X then to me that just shows how little some Americans pay attention to how the same hot button issues affect other nations. There is nothing unique about American gay people that indicates things will be any different.

It’s very simple – consenting adults. No kids, ho horses, consenting adults. We dont have gay marriage so much as we have equal marriage. Just like how now a gay person could marry a straight person, two straight people could get married to each other. It’s their choice, no slippery slope. Marriage will exist essentially for people who love each other and need the rights that come with it, but will have as equal an opportunity to be abused or disrespected as straight marriage can be.

People act as if priests are going to be forced to perform gay marriages. Again, shows how little they pay attention to the details about equality under the law.

“…re held as beliefs that mean more to people then almost anything else in thier lives.”

And yet people wonder why atheists get so angry, when laws are on the books not only against gay marriage, but against buttfucking.. It may take a couple generations, but the tide is already turning.

The bottom line is when it comes to marriage nobody is asking for any special rights that you or I won’t have, that or taking rights away from straight people, it is a demand for true equality under the law. And that is EXACTLY how we resolved this issue in Canada.

ha, the same rights? Americans are loosing rights on a daily basis. I’m a white male, I have no rights. Thanks to affermative action (but thats a whole different debate entirely)

And i believe that gay marriage should be left up to the states, and not the federal government.

and the problem with everything goon is that your absolutly right, besides a religious argument (which will get killed in any formal debate) there are no good arguments against gay marriage. But you see, those stupid religious arguments are arguments that are held as beliefs that mean more to people then almost anything else in thier lives. So even though there is no statistic, or legal motive to base thier argument on, it does not matter. Because in thier minds it’s god v. the natural man, and something that is said to be immoral so no facts will get you to change thier mind.

and i’m sorry to say but i do agree with the pandora’s box argument.

When you quantify “John and Steve’s love is worth less than Nick and Angela’s love” you ARE making an invasive judgment into their lives and using the hammer of the law as your weapon to try and curb it. And the word “civil union” is part of that weapon to still have a “comfort” that these people are different and inferior to other peoples’ ‘good Christian values’. It’s absolutely bullying, to me fascistic, use of the government to judge other people. If you need the government to devalue other peoples consentual love, be it through banning certain kinds of fucking or be it marriage, you have an unreasonable problem that transcends your personal opinion of gay people.

With that in mind, to me your personal opinion on their morality has absolutely no basis in that final decision. You can’t selectively enforce morality against one minority group, and I can’t trust anyone who can’t climb that simple curb.

So? They’re wrong. They believe this because their religion dictates that homosexuality is a choice. THere is no good non-religious argument against gay marriage other than that the government should not be involved with marriage.

The whole thing is fucked up anyways, I hate the bullshit ’sanctity of marriage’ crowd when marriage began, and in many parts of the world still today, is entirely a business arrangement, and women are traded like stocks. its entirely absurd when half of straight marriages end in divorce. its entirely absurd when divorce is biblically wrong but straight people aren’t willing to put up any constitutional amendment against THAT – WE all get their way out, but shut the door for other people.

Britney Spears can get married to anyone on a lark, a gay man can marry a straight woman, there are all these reasons why shutting down the marriage argument holds absolutely no weight. And nobody can give me the ’slippery slope’ marry an animal crap, because our government and European governments both made it absolutely clear about these things.

And finally, unlike the arguments made out there, countries with gay marriage did not suddenly turn into Sodom and Gomorrah and ruin straight marriages. I’d love to see statistics of how it could though, I mean they act as if there’s a marriage stock market and people are selling off shares in Wendy and John McCabe.

“Just because I object to thier behavior it does not mean i hate gays”

If you object to the extent that you deny them the same rights as yourself simply because they make you uncomfortable or dont like them sharing a word like ‘marriage’, then sorry, but yes – yes, you do have an unreasonable problem with gay people.

MSJ, with that kind of reasoning you could be the president. You can not compare homosexuality to the civil rights black movement. first there is a huge difrerence between your sexual preffrence and the color of ones skin. The majority of black people get pissed when gays compare thier cause to that of the civil right movement of the 60’s. Not to mention that the reason prop. 8 passed in California this passed election was because record numbers of black people in california got out and voted to support the first half black president.

You can hate the behavior and not the individual because it is possible to seperate behavior from the person. Say a member of your family was a drug addict. Because you hate that they do drugs does that mean you hate the person? of course not. they are still your family. You hate that they do drugs but you still love the individual. hate the behavior, not the person.

you can’t control your skin color no more then you can control weather your tall or short.

And goon you make very good points and i can understand what you believe and why.

but I personally don’t agree with gay marriage. I don’t hate gays, I have tons of gay friends. They know how i feel and why. I love them and they love me. Does that make me a bigot or a hate mongerer? Just because I object to thier behavior it does not mean i hate gays