Open Forum Friday: Is Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen Racist?
By now, even if you have yet to see Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen, you may have heard the accusations of racism that have been leveled at Michael Bay and Paramount regarding the characters of Mudflap and Skids aka The Twins. It’s gone from being a complaint that a handful of critics had to being headline news, and it’s generating negative buzz for the film even though it won’t likely have any effect on box office numbers. The two robots, voiced by Reno Wilson and Tom Kenny (SpongeBob Squarepants), apparently have large ears and bug eyes, speak using street slang, don’t know how to read, and one even has a gold tooth. This has offended some viewers who felt that the characters are using degrading racial stereotypes as comic relief.
Screenwriters Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman were quick to pass the buck, saying that the characters were not written that way in the script, while director Michael Bay says, “Young kids love these robots, because it makes it more accessible to them.” Many comparisons have been made to Jar-Jar Binks in Star Wars: Episode I, not just because he was annoyingly cartoonish, but also because he spoke with a Jamaican lilt. In fact, George Lucas had other alien characters in the Star Wars prequels that spoke with distinct accents (Watto and the Neimoidians from the Trade Federation, for example). But is this actually racism, or is it silly to criticize things that exist primarily for kids to laugh at?
I still haven’t seen Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen, but it sounds like the stereotypes are definitely kicking things up a notch from Star Wars: Episode I. The phrase “popping a cap” is used, for example, and it’s more than just an accent. However, voice actor Reno Wilson justified it by saying that the robots had simply absorbed tidbits of human culture from the web, and this is the exaggerated personality that came out. I guess I can kind of accept that. It’s interesting, however, that this also comes hot on the heels of some accusations of racism in The Hangover as well. Comedy sometimes needs to push the envelope to be funny, so these reactions are expected (although I don’t necessarily think the jokes in Transformers 2 are quite on the same level as Richard Pryor’s stand up material). What do you think? Is Transformers 2 racist, or are people just overreacting? Did The Twins offend you, or were they just not funny? Give us your thoughts here on Open Forum Friday.
Comments (93)
>> This has offended some viewers who felt that the characters are using degrading racial stereotypes as comic relief.
How about the “victims” themselves proudly degrading their race?
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/articles/blog/1380000138/20070522/FlavorFlav_M_Tr_11064695_600.jpg
http://gallicwars.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/plies-2008-08-18-300×3001.jpg
http://hoppingintopuddles.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/hip-hop_gangsta-rap_lil_john.jpg
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/09-07/0920baggy.jpg
Posted by Damndirtyape on June 26th, 2009i think people are over reacting,in the words of Jay “Come on Dude Its Transformers”
Posted by Tony on June 26th, 2009p.s. it was funny
Posted by Tony on June 26th, 2009theres a reason why they are called stereotypes. People need to stop getting so offended, relax, and learn to take a joke.
Posted by Rick on June 26th, 2009The movie is not rascist. Although I didn’t think the twins were funny at all, they acted most like a transformers cartoon character amongst all the robots in the film.
There was no character development for any transformer and whenever each one spoke it was always to the point, blunt, and boring. Well Jetfire had more personality than all the autobots combined. I wished they spent that kind of time on Optimus for at least one scene.
Posted by Pr1mal on June 26th, 2009The first one was racist. I haven’t seen this new one, so I cannot comment on that.
But it probably is racist. I mean, what’s with using only American automobiles for the cars? There hasn’t been a good American-made car since the 70s.
Posted by Shaun Hatton on June 26th, 2009I would have dismissed it as something that everyone could laugh at until I noticed that they had an actual black man with nasty teeth in the film, followed by a ‘fix your teeth’ joke. It made me think twice about whether this was actually racist.
Ask Tyrese Gibson, who was portrayed as military-role-model-worthy. If he’s cool with it then I guess Bay gets a pass.
Posted by some white guy on June 26th, 2009i don’t think this was racist, just a bad move making them look the way they do – the gold tooth was a little overboard.
these are robots who came to this planet and knew nothing of our world or our culture, and as optimus replied when sam queried into how jazz knew how to talk like he did, he said simply (more or less), “the world wide web” – they searched the internet and in their research they stumbled onto an “urban” or “hip-hop” website. They obviously liked what they saw and took this culture to heart and tried to emulate it as best they could, and in doing so, they became caricatures of a stereotype that people think are racist. Stereotypes, in many cases, are there for a reason, and while im not condoning these exaggerations, i dont think the intention of these two robots was to offend anyone. Shit, this should be racist against white people and asian people and latin people because I have heard and seen plenty of ALL races talking this way. It’s a culture, not a one-race-only way of speaking.
I realize that saying it doesnt prove anything, but from where i was sitting i could hear the laughter of many ‘a’ black folk (is “black folk” a racist term?).
Wait a tick, wasnt Mater from Cars (a movie that i think carefully about referencing) a white-trash hillbilly towtruck? How is that not racist? I really hate this damned double standard that people have. A black guy beats a white guy, it’s self-defense, but if a white guy beats a black guy, its a FUCKING HATE CRIME. I’m not promoting the beating of innocent black or white people, I’m just trying to prove a point.
people just need to get their heads out of their asses and just shut the hell up.
I’m sure there will be plenty of people that will refute this, but within the CONTEXT of the movie these characters are NOT racist, only highly impressionable.
Posted by Dexter Morgan on June 26th, 2009@Dexter – The White trash hillbilly in Cars is a stereotype but isn’t racist; Prejudice + Power = racism.
Therefore, the stereotypical portrayal of Black people by a white writer/producer/director is racist.
The term “Black” to describe that race is not racist.
I would argue that in your example both crimes are hateful crimes. You don’t beat up someone you like, right? Context has a lot to do with it. I suggest you read this for some well-researched insight on racism:
http://www.theautomatik.com/2008/04/16/not-proud-of-being-white/
Posted by Shaun Hatton on June 26th, 2009Tyrese Gibson is not a spokesperson for every person of color on the planet, just as “but my black friend didn’t think it was racist” does not dictate whether or not something is, in fact, racist.
Also, whether or not white people are racist is completely and totally unrelated to and should not be impacted by intra-POC prejudices. People of color should be able to sort out their own issues without whitey stepping in to call the shots.
Posted by Less Lee Moore on June 26th, 2009@Shaun – by your definition, these black robots are black, right?
wait, how do you know theyre black? is it because of the way they talk? These robots are green and red, respectively, i see no primary color anywhere on them being black, other than the robotic parts that are intrinsically black for aesthetic or design purposes.
you (or anyone else) saying that these robots are black are just promoting the stereotype that black people talk like this. YOURE saying that these robots are supposed to be black, not me. i know for a fact that at least one of the voice actors is white, so thats the race that i attributed the character because it’s not specifically stated. Obviously if i did not know that i may or may not have assumed that he was black, but perception plays a big role in this whole situation.
Posted by Dexter Morgan on June 26th, 2009“Urban” hip-hop and rapper types WANT to be portrayed like clowns. Look at the links I posted above, which are a microscopic sample of what’s out there. Everyday in LA I see people who go out of their way to act and dress like stereotypes.. so again, how is is racist to depict a certain culture onscreen in the way it depicts its own self when given the chance?
If every single black person from all walks of life in the movie talked like a hood rat or something then I could see people being offended.. But a couple of ROBOTS talk in stereotypes and people are upset? LOL..
People need to get a grip.. if anything, media generally bends over backward to avoid depicting blacks, mexicans, gays etc in anything but a sparkling light. When was the last time anyone saw a sitcom with a black or mexican thug/robber/gangbanger commiting a crime? In sit-com world only generic white guys commit crimes.
Posted by Damndirtyape on June 26th, 2009I don’t think this is any more racist than “White Chicks” – oh, wait, but THAT was funny … good harmless fun to have two black guys paint their faces white … that’s hilarious! But heaven forbid a robot speak jive!
Posted by J on June 26th, 2009I don’t think its outright racist, but certainly in poor taste and poor judgement. It’s the kind of cheap and easy comedy that comes from using stereotypes instead of actually writing something funny. And as the rest of the movie shows, there isn’t any good funny writing in there. These characters aren’t needed in the movie, and you have to wonder about whoever made the decision to include them.
Posted by Travis on June 26th, 2009I’d rather everyone focus on Megan’s Fox’s Toe-Thumbs:
http://gusnyc.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/megan_toe_thumb.gif
Posted by Damndirtyape on June 26th, 2009Listen the only people complaining about racism are white people. The blacks love the twins! Also all the black people I know act just like the twins.
Posted by hisdivsha on June 26th, 2009it’s great to get the white conservative take:
I don’t see what the blacks have to complain about ARGLEBARGLE they’re just mad because it’s true!
Posted by Rusty James on June 26th, 2009did you what letterman said about Bristol Palin that’s the real outrage!
But I’ll attempt to actually contribute with a constructive remark.
Its true that our culture is laden with all kinds of broad stereotypes in our entertainment. Italian gangstars, inbred hillbillies, aborted mexican fetuses, Bruno next week whatever. And I agree Ape, 50 Cent is a living breathing racial stereotype.
Some of these are more offensive than others(in my opinion Jazz from the first one was a harmless stereotype) but for the most part no one makes a big deal.
So that the twins are stereotypes does not set them apart. I think what makes them so offensive is that they are collection of not just stereotypes about black but in particular negative and harmful stereotypes. They are illiterate, they look like deformed monkeys, they are incompetent and stumble around like they’re on drugs. They get kicked out of the temple for acting a fool. It’s like Bay researched Black culture by reading Storm Front.
Another difference. These characters are one dimensional, there’s nothing else too them other than offensive cliches. Maybe some people feel that Tony Soprano is a negative stereotype of Italians. But Tony is a complex character and he’s treated with dignity.
Bruno might be a buffoon he works as social satire as well. The joke is just as likely to be on the mark he’s interacting with as the gay community.
I’ve heard Deliverence come up in the debate as well, as an example of negative white stereotypes. But Deliverance is about a collision of two different cultures. And it’s just as much about the clueless arrogence of the oblivious city folk.
Maybe you or someone you know was legitimately offended by anyone of those examples. I can’t fault that but there’s more going on in those examples than just evoking stereotypes.
Posted by Rusty James on June 26th, 2009Do any of you make a similar argument about Retardobots (irony!)2. Is there any social satire at play? Are the characters treated with dignity?
This movie is racist, but it’s on the ARABs
As to these retarded JAR JAR robots, they were just annoying as hell
Posted by Xu on June 26th, 2009“Apparently have large ears and bug eyes, speak using street slang, don’t know how to read, and one even has a gold tooth. Reno Wilson justified it by saying that the robots had simply absorbed tidbits of human culture from the web, and this is the exaggerated personality that came out.”
The robots had simply absorbed tidbits of human culture from the web and this is the exaggerated personality that came out?…
Why the hell can’t these robots read if they’re so goddamn advanced? There excuse about those robots are bullshit. One of the things I can’t stand about Michael bay films is that there’s always a scene in his movies where there’s some african american that’s either talkin “ghetto” or just being plain loud. (Eddie Griffin in Armaggedon, the loud “big” black woman at that Radio Shack in, Bad Boys 2, the black construction worker and the black receptionist in, The Island, the black hostage in The Rock, and even Anthony Anderson and how Bernie Mack talked about that old lady, he called “MAMMY”(who calls anybody Mammy, besides Sambo and the black slaves, back in the day? Even the scene in Bad Boys 2 when Will Smith and Martin Lawrence got all “nigga talk and slangish” on that boy that was gonna take Martins Daughter out on a date. His movies always looked big budget and action packed, but I never really cared much for them. Every time I’ve gone to watch them, I would leave the theater
more likely disapointed than not, which is kinda how I felt after watching the first Transformers.
The fact that Michael consistantly relies on black stereotypes for “comic relief” in his films speaks volumes on his limited creativity.
Posted by Derek on June 26th, 2009Ok first of all, the part about “looking like deformed monkies” what the hell is that? what about people who have a lazy eye or can’t talk straight, one arm’s bigger than the other, like in the case of the two autobots; does that make them offensive? They look more like robot gremlins, ever see that movie? they have the bug eyes and big ears,and the big lips, are they racial stereotypes of black people? And what about the way they talk, you see guys like mike epps, eddie griffin, cris tucker( in his younger roles), snoop dog etc, talk like that 99% of the time, or at least while their in character, and nobody whines to the press about them,as long as they make money, right? but all of a sudden two CGI robots, who have no physical presence other than in the movie, have that same personality that’s was so tolerable before and people cry racism. And another thing; the part about them being illiterate, half the people I went to high school with couldn’t read,and probably still can’t, are they walking stereotypes of themselves? What you whiners need to do is stop being such freakin hypocrites and either don’t watch the freakin movie or shut up and enjoy it!
Posted by Will on June 26th, 2009No Transformers Revenge of the Fallen is not racist
Posted by Marc on June 26th, 2009but White Chicks and The Ladies Man are racist.
@Will
- Word up, dog! Yo Yo Yo! West-Siiiieeeeeedddddeeeee
Posted by Damndirtyape on June 26th, 2009I thought the twins were overall incredibly annoying and fairly racist, but I highly doubt Michael Bay would be smart enough to realize this.
Posted by Steven C. on June 26th, 2009@ Ok first of all, the part about “looking like deformed monkies”
How did you quote me and still manage to misspell “monkeys”?
@ half the people I went to high school with couldn’t read
Oh.
Posted by Rusty James on June 26th, 2009For all the people who thought they were racists, what rascist quotes and remarks did the robots say throughout the movie?
The film is already escaping my mind and can’t remember what kind of f’ed up things they said.
Posted by Pr1mal on June 26th, 2009some of Damndirtyape’s comments sound a little too close to clouded true racism. I dont know the guy but there’s something iffy about what I’m reading, something harsh that seems to be held back. That’s how it comes across.
If Flavor Flav is ‘degrading his race’ by having a clownish persona, then Carrot Top is degrading Irish americans and Weird Al is degrading Serbians.
Being a weirdo, being an asshole, being whatever, is not a self-assessment of your race unless you are actively trying to state something by your actions, in which case you’re pretty much acting pretentious and fake. Look, there are plenty of things to find ridiculous about the hip-hop community, and plenty of stereotypes that can hold an element of truth about every race and culture…
but theres a line between parody and satire and pure apery and disguised racism. A good example of the latter would be that Obama Waffles packaging thing from the latter end of the election cycle, which brought racial caricature and stereotypes forward that had nothing to do with anything, nothing to do with why he would be a bad president.
I personally did not find the twins that offensive, and that’s because I would never believe Tom Kenny to be a racist, and I don’t think Michael Bay is either. He’s just ridiculous and makes questionable decisions.
To me its all about context and success. Family Guy and South Park dont actually take a go at everyone equally, but they both do it close enough and with intentions that can spare them from being called racist or homophobic. And since the show is popular, it gets away with it. In WWE there’s a tag team called Cryme Tyme which are pretty racist caricatures, but those racial stereotypes are hardly the most offensive portrayals they’ve put out there. And then of course there’s the countless times the word “nigger” has shown up in Tarantino movies.
I’m not ready to fly off the handle at any of these, the words or depictions themselves to me aren’t racist so much as the intentions or value of the depictions, what they’re trying to say, or what service they put to the story. If the Twins had been a more successful element of the movie, we may not be having this conversation. If you ask me, being racially provocative as well as annoying/failure is what is drawing the attention.
Posted by Goon on June 26th, 2009“what rascist quotes and remarks did the robots say throughout the movie?”
While its mostly the look and talk, I think the “we don’t read” lines are what put some people over the edge into declaring them an updated version of Amos and Andy, or Hekyll and Jekyll, or those jive talkers from Airplane.
Posted by Goon on June 26th, 2009“In sit-com world only generic white guys commit crimes.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkp5wuuarOs
Gay Puerto Rican attack! Owned.
Posted by Goon on June 26th, 2009@ Rusty, it’s called a mistake jackass,ever heard of them ? I must’ve submitted it before fully proofreading it. OH FOR YOUR INFORMATION I GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL AT THE TOP OF MY CLASS, WANNA SEE MY DIPLOMA ASSHOLE !
@ damndirtyape, See there you go, another reason why this debate is even happening, because of comments like that. But you know something I bet no one will accuse you of portraying a racial stereotype.
oh , before I go I better proofread this so someone doesn’t think I’m illiterate , right rusty ?
Posted by Will on June 26th, 2009@ OH FOR YOUR INFORMATION I GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL AT THE TOP OF MY CLASS, WANNA SEE MY DIPLOMA ASSHOLE !
your class of iliterates?
Posted by Rusty James on June 26th, 2009whoa calm down there Will…
for the record you made some of the same points as Dirtyape, but I can disagree with certain points without thinking there’s some underlying prejudice. I thank you for that but lets not go crazy. I know Rusty and despite hating Ghost World he’s a rational good guy, and not an asshole. I can tell he was playfully needling and you obviously took it very seriously.
What I will take exception to is “either don’t watch the freakin movie or shut up and enjoy it!” – You dont know if you’ll enjoy it unless you watch it. Do you think watching something obligates a person to like it?
Posted by Goon on June 26th, 2009Re: the sitcom thing though, its absolutely true that generally there is an avoidance to portray other races negatively. I used that Seinfeld clip because that show as well as Curb Your Enthusiasm and even Arrested Development from time to time, are great examples of shows that used racial stereotypes and neuroses well without being overly mean or exploitative, the only bias was towards funny. Married With Children were un-PC quite often and especially misogynistic, but it was made easier to accept by the trashy middle class hateful white family.
To me the real reason most sitcoms don’t use stereotypes negatively is this: Most network sitcoms especially are dominated by all white casts. If there was a need for a thug or a thief having that person be another race would stand out much more drastically and just draw unnecessary attention, and draw away from their pathetic usual attempts at mainstream comedy. Sitcoms all aim to be as safe as possible for their audience, who don’t want to be confronted by real issues. It’s entirely a pragmatic decision, and isn’t based at all on anyones real senses of social politics.
And yet even on these safe sitcoms there are cases where they are idiot characters that someone may want to use to make some case. Waldo from Family Matters is a blithering idiot, as is Jazz from Fresh Prince. Joey from Friends is dumb as fuck, were Italians mad?
Posted by Goon on June 26th, 2009>>some of Damndirtyape’s comments sound a little too close to clouded true racism.
So what? Feel free to think whatever you want. Am I supposed to beg for forgiveness because someone decided to accuse me of something? What exactly is you point? Is accusing me of the dreaded “R” word supposed to invalidate the argument?
As to your other point, yes I think its ridiculous for people to whine about CGI robots being “racist” when there are tons of people – some of them rich and famous for it – in REAL LIFE – who act and talk and dress worse than in the movie. When Rapper X Y or Z or the upteenth guy I see on the train acts and talks like that its “cool” but when a stupid robot in a movie talks like that it’s racism? I’m not buying that argument in the least.
By the way, did you NOT see the quote I used from Sean directly above my own. The one with the word “degrade” in it? I just used his key words to structure my own response. Flavor Flav is obviously not degrading his race, nor is Carot Top or Tony Soprano or any CGI robots. The whole thing is silly.
Posted by Damndirtyape on June 26th, 2009“Is accusing me of the dreaded “R” word supposed to invalidate the argument?”
It definitely makes me feel you are using selective arguments and being unfair when I get that impression. I already gave some reasons why I disagree with some of your specific points.
If I am wrong about your views, I absolutely apologize, but that is how it came across and thats how I addressed it. It doesnt affect my life any.
Can we reach an agreeable consensus that if the twin characters had actually been likeable or funny, that this would not be an issue? That you can get away with racially provocative material so long as you succeed?
Posted by Goon on June 26th, 2009>> Can we reach an agreeable consensus that if the twin characters had actually been likeable or funny, that this would not be an issue? That you can get away with racially provocative material so long as you succeed?
Agreed. In my mind Bay’s biggest offense is horrible, lazy writing and gaping plot problems. There is NO good reason to have most of that stupid crap in the movie in the first place since clever, engaging dialogue is so much more rewarding to the viewer than tkaing the easiest way out. Shame that a few more of the 200 million budget didn’t go into improving the script.
Posted by Damndirtyape on June 26th, 2009We’ll I’ll agree with you there.
I think another big issue with Skids and Mudflap is that they are not known characters. Jazz was clearly a ‘black’ transformer in the first movie and while people laughed at how it was done, and even more so since he died (black guy always dies first
) since he’s an established Transformer with that type of personality, and one fans wanted to see, it could get away with it. Thus when these “black” new Transformers show up, its seen as entirely Bay’s doing and more easily feeds those accusing racism.
Introducing those new characters and giving them that much screen time is just asking for trouble, particularly from the fanboys who realize they are watching characters they did not come to see. And when you do them badly… this is another big reason why people say its Jar Jar all over again, because they get saddled with a comic relief character that just doesn’t work. They’ll live with the other characters shoehorned into the plot, but the new character that also sucks ends up being unforgivable.
Posted by Goon on June 26th, 2009I think we can also agree that if they really wanted to make those ‘bots truly racist caricatures, they could definitely have gone further. If they’d been a bouncing pimpmobile…
actually, a bouncing pimpmobile black robot would have been a lot cooler and more fun than more Chevy product placement. Give it Snoop Doggs voice and everyone would love it.
Posted by Goon on June 26th, 2009@ goon: I did, didn’t I ? as for the other thing you said, I guess you have a point there. And I guess did get a little heated there, I apologize.
Posted by Will on June 26th, 2009Wow… …White people – just – dont – get it.
Posted by Coby on June 26th, 2009And P.S. … in the black community, movies like “White Chicks” and “Soul Plane” are widely regarded as the worst thing to happen to us since slavery. Most of us TRULY hate that sh!t.
Posted by Coby on June 26th, 2009I don’t find it racist but after a while I did find the twins rather annoying as they didn’t really do much in the film rather than be comic relief. They have a brief stint in fighting against Devastator but they don’t accomplish anything at all. I find it to be rather true to Transformers though as the twins are formed by a single spark splitting in two so their degraded personality suits their character.
I think people just overreact way too much and critics are morons who know shit. They’ve given all of Michael Bay’s films bad reviews and yet he consistently makes triple digit millions while movies they give good reviews too barely make it past double digits. I think critics need to lay off Bay and all this racism crap is just huge overreactions. No one complained this much with movies like Superbad or Pineapple Express or Forgetting Sarah Marshall. If you wanna complain then complain about the crude jokes in those that are really over the top at times.
If you wanna complain about Transformers, complain about Shia’s roommate Leo who is just so goddamned annoying and has no point in being in the movie at all. Only part of the film I didn’t like, other than that I give ROTF a 8/10 and can’t wait for the already announced third film. More power to Michael Bay, he knows what cinema wants.
Posted by Gary V on June 27th, 2009this discussion is pointless and not even worth having. I mean come on the only way you can look at the twins is like two “white?” teenagers who wanna ACT gangsta by talking like that!!
They are not black, they are robots!
Posted by bert belgium on June 27th, 2009“No one complained this much with movies like Superbad or Pineapple Express or Forgetting Sarah Marshall.”
That’s because those movies are comedies that are billed and made as such. A film not billed or made as a comedy yet has no fewer than *5* comic relief characters that ultimately fail to deliver. . .well, that’s what kids call fail even if they can’t admit it for this movie.
“They’ve given all of Michael Bay’s films bad reviews. . .”
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1072011-rock/
” More power to Michael Bay, he knows what cinema wants.”
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/island/
Cinema just wants your money. And for the record, Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen isn’t racist, it’s just stupid.
Posted by Dave on June 27th, 2009“I find it to be rather true to Transformers though as the twins are formed by a single spark splitting in two so their degraded personality suits their character. ”
You just opened the door for someone to go “Oh, so two black people equals one regular white person?”
“No one complained this much with movies like Superbad or Pineapple Express or Forgetting Sarah Marshall.”
You could go further and list Ben Stiller as the “full retard” in Tropic Thunder. But again, that’s context.
The crude jokes in Superbad and PE and FSM are the main features, are performed well by professional comedians, not by CGI or dogs humping. But even in PE etc, there are a lot of critics who hate that humor and gave it bad reviews for it. Again its like I said, if you are working blue but good at it, you’re off the hook. If you suck, and can’t get a good joke across properly, the door is open for people to start wondering about your intentions or what the joke was supposed to say, if that joke is treating you like you’re stupid, etc. Because unless Bay says he specifically put that in there for the 12 year old boy, his humor there is definitely in question..
(for the record, that is how i took that dog humping stuff, it doesnt bug me any more than the random farts in Nacho Libre)
Posted by Goon on June 27th, 2009Bert, the reason “they are robots” doesn’t get Bay off the hook is because these robots also apparently can grow beards and need canes. When you bring those sort of traits into the mix, you definitely open the door for people to speculate.
Posted by Goon on June 27th, 2009@Goon
“grow beards and need canes”?
a robot growing a beard? seeing as how we never knew jetfire in his heyday, how do we know he didn’t always have those beard-like…appendages? saying he “grew” those is only speculation.
and as for the cane thing, i think it’s pretty obvious that since he was an old Prime, his parts were a little rusty and he was weak in the joints, he needed something to help him stand, just as anyone else would. if you had a broken leg, wouldn’t you need a crutch?
Posted by Dexter Morgan on June 27th, 2009Also, there is also a scene where Sam is dead, at least that is what I assumed at the time, and he speaks to robots “from the otherside” showing that they have souls.
I thought scene was fucking ridiculous and probably the worst part of the movie.
Posted by Pr1mal on June 27th, 2009“his parts were a little rusty and he was weak in the joints, he needed something to help him stand, just as anyone else would. if you had a broken leg, wouldn’t you need a crutch?”
If we’re actually doing this. . . .
Jetfire also had been well preserved in the Smithsonian Museum, located in Sonoma, Arizona in Michael Bay’s film. That preservation would have sheltered Jetfire from many different elements causing rust.
Also, Optimus spat out a tooth at one point. What do giant robots need with teeth? What do giant robots need with gold teeth? You say “just as anyone else would” as if we were all sentient transforming robots from outer space. What you have done is assign a human characteristic to Jetfire, which is what the film wants you to do. At that point you have have to accept the notion that robots grow beards and suffer from regenerative joint disorders and bone decay. And that is patently stupid.
Posted by Dave on June 27th, 2009Were there any gold toothed transformers that couldn’t read, in the cartoons as well; or was that just something that Bay thought he would just throw in the mix?
Loud and ghetto sounding characters seem to be Bay’s trademark in all of his movies. Like Sam Raimi’s yellow Delta 88, Tarantino and his love for usin the word nigger/nigga,M. Night Shamalan’s movie twists, James Cameron using Michael Bien as a soldier,Kevin Smith’s Star Wars talk, or Rob Zombies wife(lol).
I’m not saying that the twin robots were “black” (cause they’re “robots”); however, they do seem to remind me of all the Loud/ghetto “black” actor/characters in ever other movie he’s done in the past.
Next movie that Bay directs, he should probably have a non black actor that sounds loud and ghetto; to at least show critics that folks don’t have ta be black to sound like that.
B.T.W.
Posted by Derek on June 27th, 2009They should try ta get Cameron to direct the next Transformers flick. I hear that Bay is just as much of an asshole as Cameron…only difference is, Cameron doesn’t suck; and he can make a lot of money, not only by making an action block buster, but by making a “GOOD” action block buster; which is what Bay lacks in. His movies are big in the summer, but Camerons movies are memorable, and don’t have critics blowin up about shitty issues like stupid ghetto lookin, ghetto talkin robots, that are supposed to make you laugh (but don’t).
“joints” is a technical term, i wasnt referring to flesh or bone, just pieces of metal connecting at a point. also, the term is “degenerative,” not “regenerative,” which gives the opposite connotation.
i’m sorry, but just because something is “protected” in the Smithsonian does not mean that it is impervious to all forms of degradation, including weakening of the JOINTS – therefore after many years in his alternate mode, Jetfire might need some support to stand up without falling over, and he adapted by making a type of crutch/cane from some not totally important parts.
in regards the the “teeth” in question, who ever said they were teeth? yes, because he spat them out of his mouth it’s supposed to be inferred that they are teeth, but does that make it so? he got punched in the head/face area and some pieces of metal were dislodged and he needed to get rid of them. does that make them teeth? no, it does not. (you may also be referring to the twin with the gold tooth as well; that i assumed was just for aesthetic reasons, not something functional)
Posted by Dexter Morgan on June 27th, 2009“I’m not saying that the twin robots were “black” (cause they’re “robots””
I dont think “becuase they’re robots” is an escuse
Are these crows black, or “just crows”?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOcVkofa1AU
Is URL from Futurama meant to be black, or “just a robot”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkcX_5hZN6U
Come on man, for a living my illustrations are usually of foods or objects that are given human personas and traits. I’ve turned lemons into hookers, sandwiches into perverted flashers, wine corkscrews into pimps, with specific intentions for those things to hold those personas in the specific articles context I turned a jar of grape jelly into a sassy black momma like Tracy Morgans wife on 30 Rock. I’ve made countless objects gay, including Olympic torches. (you’re gonna have to trust me that they make sense
)
Racist or not, using the ‘just a robot’ defence thing doesn’t fly with me. I’m not the only person out there using various cultural traits to bring life to characters that arent actually of that same culture/race.
Posted by Goon on June 28th, 2009You’re debating now that they weren’t meant to be represented as TEETH? You’re doing one hell of a gymnastics routine there, man.
Posted by Goon on June 28th, 2009dude, i didnt say that, i said they WERE meant to be seen as teeth.
I’m just saying that doesnt make them ACTUAL teeth. What the fuck would a robot need teeth for?
PS – im in synch. swimming, not gymnastics, dillhole.
Posted by Dexter Morgan on June 28th, 2009I have no clue what any of this racists stuff is in this movie. I am not going to see it. I just felt like commenting.
Sterotypes are an issue and one I always get a kick out of seeing made fun of in a movie from time to time. The issue with sterotypes being they exist. And being that I live between Flint and Detroit and around several trailer parks, I see the “thugged” out sterotype all the time. White or black(and they both do it, along with asian and latino), it looks stupid both ways. They don’t think it’s stupid. And oddly enough, there are plenty of attractive women who find this to be “sexy”. And I feel they look at me with as much judgement as I do them when I speak in a normal Michigander accented voice. So maybe I’m the one wrong? I dont know.
Posted by Captain N on June 28th, 2009Reread your post, I read it as trying to say they werent teeth. If you’re saying that they may not serve as ACTUAL teeth, then yeah, obviously.
Not sync swimming or gymnastics, you were just confusing to me. Like cricket. Never figured that one out
“And I feel they look at me with as much judgement as I do them when I speak in a normal Michigander accented voice. So maybe I’m the one wrong? I dont know.”
Different strokes man. People look at me like I’m crazy when they show me photos of their kids and it beocmes obvious I couldn’t give a shit.
Posted by Goon on June 28th, 2009Jesus, Dexter, you’re putting way too much thought into something that doesn’t even warrant this kind of analysis. For the record, my typing of “regenerative” was a typo and not an ignorant error. It was my fault for not proof-reading but, come on, this a fucking comment on a blog. I also like how you danced around the whole issue of there being *mountains* in Washington, D.C.
Functional, aesthetic, who gives a shit? It was stupid in terms of both plot and execution. He spat something out of his mouth after getting punched in the face. The audience doesn’t have to infer anything because the movie explicitly implies that’s it a tooth. Why are you bending over backwards to defend this wreck?
Posted by Dave on June 28th, 2009Robots having teeth are the very least of that film’s problems. Worst piece of shit I’ve seen in a long long time. Worse that 300.. worse that the recent Aliens vs Predator movie.. Suckage on so many levels.
Pick your poison – plot, dialogue, pacing, acting.. it all sucked balls. Throw in the numerous “grit your teeth it’s so stupid” moments such as the jive-twins or the Robo-nuts or the Lucas-esque jar-jar moments with the the Steve Buscemi sounding droid – it all adds up a giant waste of time and money.
Even the excellent effects were obscurred by overuse of motion-blur, monotonous repetitive sequences, and confusing choreography.
Yes I”m a red blooded American male, but the numerous teeny bopper uber-babes actually bothered me as well.. Take the complete non-sequitur Terminatrix appearing simply as an excuse to lather herself all over Shia LaBeouf. It’s also good to know that Megan Fox can bouncy-bouncy her way through a life and death robot gun battle in the desert without so much as smearing her deep red glossy lipstick while her lover boy dies and meets the robo-spirits !??!!??
I got the sense watching this film that Bay is a pervy hollywood schmoe. So much T and TA. Yea I’m sure he enjoys wildy fucking runway models on piles of money he makes from these movies.. but whatever.. didn’t add shit to the film.
Posted by Damndirtyape on June 28th, 2009I think the fact that lots of white people are arguing the racism level of two robots is proof of progress ; )
I can’t wait until complete ignorance is not associated with being black…I’d guess we still have another 100 years until society is actually “post-racial”.
Posted by Ryan M. on June 28th, 2009The saddest part of all this controversy is that everybody’s talking racism and plot. When this is a movie based on KIDS toys. The real issue should be all the sex & filthy language in a movie that should be okay for all kids to see. To throw a fit that some adults are or might be offended by the stereotyping but not care that tons of parents will either knowingly or unwitting let their kids see this movie and others like it is pathetic. The most valuable resource a society has is its children.We’re poisoning ours and nobody seems to care.
Posted by Oreo on June 28th, 2009Oh god not more ‘think of the children!’ crap
Look, I can agree that a lot of the stuff kids want to see has been made ‘darker’ for the sake of fanboys and/or art, but you act as if its new.
People forget about “penis breath” in E.T., the violence of the majority of older cartoons, etc.
“ut not care that tons of parents will either knowingly or unwitting let their kids see this movie and others like it is pathetic.”
I’ll admit that I personally couldnt give a fuck about what kids like. i dont like kids and wont be having kids either. But you’re acting as if theres a shortage of completely safe choices for kids, when there isnt.
YOU ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT SEX AND LANGUAGE, but Batman and Transformers and Ninja Turtles, even without these things, are violent as hell. THIS is why the ‘think of the children’ crap falls on such deaf ears. Geez, Larry Flynt was right!
Posted by Goon on June 28th, 2009Personally what I hated about the sexual stuff and the uber-babes is that it didn’t add anything to the film. Like so many other things in that movie it was the cheapest and lowest-common-denominator solution to adding “interest” to the film. Context is everything and chicks draped across motorcycles in shorts had no reason to be in the film aside from titilation.
I guess a few of the uberb-babes can act.. but most of the time when I see a Jesscia Alba or Megan Fox type in a movie all I can think about is how hot the actress is and how ridiculous it is for them to be running around inventing cold-fusion etc.
Fuck it.. just put Cate Blanchett or Kate Winselt in every single female role.. not too pretty but incredibly charismatic onscreen.
Posted by Damndirtyape on June 28th, 2009I think Kate Winslet is usually pretty damn hot actually, and she’s naked pretty often lately too
the college of nothing but Victoria Secret models in TF2 is just too weird and was just out of nowhere.
Does anyone ACTUALLY ever lean across a motorcycle like that, ever?
Posted by Goon on June 28th, 2009>> I think Kate Winslet is usually pretty damn hot actually, and she’s naked pretty often lately too
Sure, she’s attractive, but not in an obnoxious bimbo way. Megan Fox and Jessica Alba belong in Maxim magazine, not in movies.
>> the college of nothing but Victoria Secret models in TF2 is just too weird and was just out of nowhere
And how about the Species/ Terminatrix thing with the slutty bimbo? I was thinking what the hell is THIS shit doing in my giant Robot movie…
Come on Bay, steal from appropriate films.. not like you did with the Matrix-spider-probe-down-throat bit and the 5 billionth bullet-time scenes I’ve seen since the original Matrix and Blade. Good god what would hollywood have ever down without that slow-mo acrobat stuff from the Matrix? How much longer do we have to see that in action sequences? It’s been 10 years.. PLEASE let it die.
Posted by Damndirtyape on June 28th, 2009Judging from the comments I am no more than ever convinced that people of other races cannot possibly understand each other. I applaud those that try though. Those robots were racist. Period. Post-racial period my a$$. Why is it the robots did not absorb information about Obama? And if they are just gathering what is on the net why are the robots characteristics stereotypical of ONE SPECIFIC GROUP? Simply idiotic.
Posted by Erin on June 28th, 2009Hey I’m white so I don’t get it. BUT I am going to say that it’s not that they couldn’t read so much as they couldn’t transcribe hieroglyphics. Also Bumblebee and Optimus couldn’t read them… The only ones that could were the Decepticons, and nobody here can say Hugo Weaving talked jive that whole movie. Was Bay being racist to whites making them the villain characters who didn’t talk in slang? I don’t think so. My thought was they were funny I laughed, my daughter laughed, the loud obnoxious girls behind me laughed. If they wanted it to be racist I think it would have been more distinct also they would have been decpticons, and they wouldn’t have been brave enough to fight the descepticon 30 times their size. Or however big that thing was!
Posted by Mike on June 28th, 2009“Was Bay being racist to whites making them the villain characters who didn’t talk in slang?”
No, but don’t you get thats the benefit of being the ‘default’ race in cinema and TV?
It even happens with my own illustrations, and is why I rarely draw people anymore. If I do an illustration and want to mix it up by having a person a different race, an editor would say “but this isnt about black issues” – you have to use the ‘default race’ because the audience will make immediate associations and assumptions.
Posted by Goon on June 28th, 2009actually its not even default race, its default gender. I’ve tried to just have the person in the article female once only to be told by an editor “is this about gender issues? people may not get it”
and of course thats an issue in TV and film, obviously. I doubt Pixar is going to have a film with a female main character anytime soon, so very few good female lead comedies and the ones that are decent(ie Smiley Face) go unseen. Seems only Tarantino is pushing against the grain there with the last couple films.
Posted by Goon on June 28th, 2009@Dave – “danced around the issue” of mountains? how could i dance around an issue that i never brought up in the first place? im a lovely dancer, by the way.
“Why are you bending over backwards to defend this wreck?”
why? well first of all because i enjoyed the flick. second of all, im sick and tired of people ripping into a movie just because i can, and i figured id defend it. third of all, im just that kind of person to argue on stupid shit like this with random people. and fourth and finally, ever heard of DEVILS FUCKING ADVOCATE?
jesus christ, man, just because a movie’s rife with plotholes and continuity errors that doesnt mean you have to ruin it for the people who may have found some entertainment in it.
Posted by Dexter Morgan on June 28th, 2009just because THEY can is what i meant to say there.
Posted by Dexter Morgan on June 28th, 2009What the fuck is rock and roll about what Mike Bay is wearing in this picture?
Posted by Matt Hook on June 29th, 2009If every single black person from all walks of life in the movie talked like a hood rat or something then I could see people being offended…………
Posted by hampshire on June 29th, 2009” im sick and tired of people ripping into a movie just because [they] can”
I invite you to listen to the latest FilmJunk podcast in which 4 different individuals treat the film with far less diplomacy. Perhaps you’d like to send in some reader mail afterwards. The address is filmjunk@gmail.com.
Posted by Dave on June 29th, 2009I don’t think they were racist, when you think about it a lot of things are “racist” in movies. I do think they were over the top though. The whole movie had enough jokes and they just made it a bit annoying. They made the twins try too hard, they were like fart jokes.
Posted by Mark on June 29th, 2009well, Dave, I actually enjoy hearing their opinions, whether i agree with them or not; I could give two shits what you think.
Go back to your silly podcast and leave it be.
Posted by Dexter Morgan on June 29th, 2009The comic relief of these characters was fine until we saw their faces and found out that they could not read. They are robots and as such have no need for teeth. It’s the choice of the director as to whether or not to give Megatron sharp teeth to add to the characters ferocity or to give to idiots gold, bucked teeth. That choice along with the speech patterns, slang and the “we can’t actually read” statement tells something about Bay’s beliefs.
Posted by hemivpr on June 29th, 2009A comparison was made earlier in this post to Mater in Cars. But that was one ignorant white character in a cast of many white characters. He was an anomalyor variation on what white people could be (as was Gilmore the hippie.) In Transformers all of the characters are assumed white as there is no real way to show any other distinction. In fact there was an episode in the original cartoon where all the robots became human and all but Jazz were white.
There should have been a character in Transformers that set the twins straight or at least showed that they were ignorant by choice and not as a rule. To “sound black” is a racist comment. A distinctive black actor’s voice (James Earl Jones, or Morgan Freeman, hell even Denzel) without sounding ignorant and “jive” should have reprimanded the twins as a teacher or educated parent would have one of the hip hop doofuses presented in the first post. ie “pull you pants up and have some self respect. You look like a criminal and I know I have taught you better than that!”
aren’t all cultures racist, or simply intolerant of certain aspects of the other culture? All or most full bred Filipinos and other Asians think that American Blacks are slow,lazy and just as racist as their white counterparts ; that American Whites have superiority complex or arrogant pricks but just as lazy as their black counterparts; while others — Spanish-influenced cultures, Asians and some Europeans are more hard-working and more tolerant. Transformers2 is not at all racist simply because “The Twins” talk the talk and walk the walk, they probably do what they (were scripted to) do because it’s cool and it’s fun. Nevertheless, no other culture is above the other, because there’s only one human specie sharing the same genome sharing one planet called Earth in a galaxy of galaxies. Why we continue to destroy ourselves, others and the planet is that because we have nothing else better to do.
Posted by eastnwest on June 29th, 2009I still haven’t seen this movie, but I wasn’t surprised when I read this whole race issue with these supposedly ignorant Transformer “twins”? Cause like I said before…
Bay consistantly relies on black stereotypes for “comic relief”. Weather it be a black actor playing the role (like in all of his movies) or a pair of ignorant twin Transformers with gold “teeth”. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, just check out any of his movies in the past (except Pearl Harbor. He did however manage to get one black actor in the movie…Cuba Gooding Jr.) Besides that, take a good look and listen to how their characters are portrayed.(Eddie Griffin in Armaggedon, the loud “big” black woman at that Radio Shack in, Bad Boys 2, the black construction worker and the black receptionist in, The Island, the black hostage in The Rock, and even Anthony Anderson and how Bernie Mack talked about that old lady, he called “MAMMY”. Even the scene in Bad Boys 2 when Will Smith and Martin Lawrence got all “nigga talk and slangish” on that boy that was gonna take Martins Daughter out on a date.
Bay could have used at least one black actor to voice over one of the Robots, speaking proper english, LIKE I DO; but it’s obvious, that’s not what he wants in his movies. He wants loud and ghetto/ignorant. Nobody can prove me otherwise. I wouldn’t consider Bay to be a racist towards black, (if he were, he proly would have used non blacks ta play the main characters in Bad Boys. I will say that he seems to find ignorant and loud blacks to be funny, and apparently thinks that most audiences find it funny too; which (from all these comments) isn’t the case.
Goon… Those crows in Dumbo were definitely black and stereotyped(”I BE DONE SEEN”); however that shit came out around the 1940’s; back when African Americans had to wear BLACK make up, just to have an appearance on the big screen. (ex: Sambo). Things are supposed ta be different now days (wishful thinking). Still to this day, I’ve some times noticed non blacks to seem nervous as we’re walking past my black ass on the sidewalk. Most likely it has to do with stereotyping. So seeing and hearing about that kind of shit in Bay’s films is more embarrassing to me than offensive. Cause that’s all I ever see in his films. Like his trademark or something. There’s characterizing and there’s stereotyping. You be the judge.
P.S. Fuck Bay’s films
Posted by Derek on June 29th, 2009“Go back to your silly podcast and leave it be.”
Another fan! I love making friends on the Internet!
Posted by Dave on June 29th, 2009Derek, I have nothing to add, just wanted to say thanks for your comment so you know I took the time to read it.
Posted by Goon on June 29th, 2009“aren’t all cultures racist, or simply intolerant of certain aspects of the other culture?”
I suppose, in many other parts of the world its really about social class/stature rather than race.
Posted by Goon on June 29th, 2009Goon…B.T.W. Dumbo was one of my favorites. Pink Elephants man…Pink Elephants.;S
Posted by Derek on June 29th, 2009Racist? No, I don’t think so. Funny? Certainly not!!!
Posted by Ryan on June 30th, 2009This is what I hate about the modern world. You can say anything without having someone complain about out, everyone is so uptight. It was a movie, if your offended, dont go see it.
Posted by Mel on July 2nd, 2009I am pretty sure they could read they just could not read the ancient language of Cybertron. It would be like asking some average person now to just read Latin from a drawing
Posted by SteveDave on July 2nd, 2009that would be an acceptable excuse if they didnt just say they didnt really read, period.
Posted by Goon on July 2nd, 2009And nobody seems to note that Bay had to make the twins illiterate or there would have been no need to find Jetfire????
If anything, Bay is guilty of using cheap plot devices and little originality to force the story forwards.
The illiterate part was one instance, the fight in the temple was another (the wall to the tomb had to be broken).
However, when I compare the twins to Jazz I do feel that Jazz had a lot of stereotypical characteristics I could laugh WITH (and which made him likeable) while the twins only had negative characteristics that were obviously meant to be ridiculed.
Making fun with someone making fun of someone, there’s a difference.
Posted by PeeGee on July 4th, 2009The biggest fuck you in the script is when they say that 5 went into the water and 6 are coming up… but they killed one of them for parts underwater…
five plus one minus one equals five. I guess “mute math” were on the first soundtrack for a reason *rimshot*
Posted by Goon on July 4th, 2009I don’t think it was meant to offend anyone…..i mean if you can look at orange and green robots and automatically assume they are black because they act ghetto then maybe the problem isn’t in the film, but in you. I know plenty of folks from every racial ethnicity that act like that from latin, black, asian and white.
I liked those characters, they were funny, they added a light sense of humor to the movie. They were most certainly not inept (SPOILER ALERT)!! They were kicking the giant robots ass in the end of the film. My only complaint is you never find out what happens to them??
Posted by MoJoe on July 6th, 2009Stereotype is another word to convey what you really want to say without saying directly.
A stereotype is a type of logical oversimplification in which all the members of a class or set are considered to be definable by an easily distinguishable set of characteristics. The term is often used with a negative connotation, as stereotypes can be used to deny individuals respect or legitimacy based on their membership in a particular group. In America, the term has long been associated with the Civil Rights movement and is imbued with a semblance of racial context.
Stereotypes often form the basis of prejudice and are usually employed to explain real or imaginary differences due to race, gender, religion, age, ethnicity, socio-economic class, disability, and occupation, among the limitless groups one may be identified with. A stereotype can be a conventional and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image based on the belief that there are attitudes, appearances, or behaviors shared by all members of a group.
Thus the attributes of big lips, gold teeth, language associated and the inability to read can only bring you to one conclusion as far as a stereotype go in reference to MUDFLAP and SKID. I am thankful that they did not make them red and blue( gangs stereotype) Cadillacs with 24’s (Black material stereotype) Unless you are from that stereotype most often you would not be offended. Example of a stereotype, it was once said to me that if you don’t want black people to know something put it in a book, blacks are fully aware of this stereotype, so hence a connection has been made and people will get offended not only blacks but whites as well.
I didn’t see a AutoBot that was a trailer or a mobile home, nor did I see a robot with a red neck with no teeth talking like a hillbilly, none of those stereotypes were used. There was one thing that bother me more about this movie than the stereotypes, it was when Optimus Prime, said ” PUNK ASS DECPETICONS”. WTF…… I took my daughter to see this movie and had to explained to her that the Transformers I knew are no more.
Posted by BIG on July 14th, 2009I http://watchtvonline1.com – watch tv onlinealot, lol some of my favorites are youtube. What are places
can I watch tv online.
Is it legal for me to have explained here?, and bank accounts? How to start? Can I move my existing business offshore
Thanks
Posted by triltesollicy on August 19th, 2009just throwing this out there, because I know it has been months since this awesome movie came out, but would this whole racism debate even exists if the director happened to be a black American versus a white American…I personally don’t think so, but I’m wondering if any of you who have claimed this movie was racist, whether you are black, white, red, or yellow with purple polka dots for all I care, have you taken that into consideration? Nah, of course not, because then you would have no soapbox to stand upon and bitch about!
Posted by your mama on October 22nd, 2009And, by the way…Ryan M has made the most impressive point out of all of us under number 59. Why does everything have to be a black and white issue? Hell, I am married interacially to a Filipino, and we lived in such a messed up part of the world I think he actually regards himself as “white” as if there is only 2 races, black and white, and if you are anything else you just have to join one of those forces. We have people dying all around the world, with all different shades of skin color, and we…as Americans…fight over the stupidest shit! All I can say is that I hope my kids grow up smarter than we are and know when movies are there to entertain. Do you guys realize you are arguing over 2 ficticious robots from a movie?
Posted by your mama on October 22nd, 2009Leave a Reply