The Golden Compass Waters Down Atheist Undertones
When I saw the first trailer for the upcoming film The Golden Compass, I have to admit that it looked like just another fantasy film riding the coattails of the Harry Potter films and The Chronicles of Narnia. However, one interesting detail that has come out about Philip Pullman’s His Dark Materials trilogy (the books upon which it is based) is that in contrast to the Christian allegories found in C.S. Lewis’ Narnia stories, there is actually a strong anti-religion undertone to these books. How could such a scary and “evil” concept could possibly make its way into a mainstream Hollywood film? Well, unfortunately, it looks like New Line have had to compromise this particular element of the first book in order to get it to the big screen. According to a recent interview with Nicole Kidman, the controversial atheist message has been “watered down a little”, and in fact, she probably wouldn’t have done the film otherwise since she is Catholic herself. While I didn’t have a ton of interest in this movie to begin with, what little enthusiasm I did have has just been knocked down a few more notches. Since I haven’t read the books, I don’t care much about whether the movie maintains their integrity, but it really bothers me that Hollywood is controlling what religious perspectives get put on screen. There are plenty of movies with Christian messages out there that the non-religious population has to deal with. Why can’t Christians handle one measly movie with atheist undertones?
Comments (88)
by ‘watered’ down I think it means that the Church in the first book will probably just be given a name like ‘the magistrate’ or something and essentially be the same thing. I also know that the other two books get more and more anti religion as they go, and its so entrenched in the story that I just dont believe its going to disappear. It would actually be a hell of a lot of work to undo it, and well – its not like changing things are going to win over any new viewers. the same parents that get upset about Harry Potter will get upset about this anyways.
It’s still very high on my anticipated list, but I’m not expecting it to be anything more than passable.
Posted by Goon on August 22nd, 2007and btw, Christians think every movie has atheist overtones
i think you need another visit to capalert.com
Posted by Goon on August 22nd, 2007Yeah true. The other thing is that Nicole Kidman may just be playing it down in the media so that people who heard that the book is anti-religion will still want to go see it.
Posted by Sean on August 22nd, 2007I wonder if the anti-religion in the source material is a preachy kind of thing that would draw one out of the movie? I only suffered through Narnia once and not being religious I didn’t notice much Christian undertones (it seemed more like a rip off of Lord of the Rings than anything else). I think it’s one thing if a seminal aspect of the source material is being left out due to assumed politial hysteria and another thing if it’s just Hollywood doing what it does and finding a common denominator elimenating the esoteric and self serving aspects of an individual’s author’s vision. I’m more curious myself to see what happens with Watchmen after it’s been run through the Hollywood sanitizer.
Posted by Ian on August 22nd, 2007I think Goon has knocked it on the head. They’ll likely just change the church and yes, the anti-religion overtones play a fairly important part in the last 2 books so I’m not quite sure how or even if they can work that out of the story if they go ahead with the three films.
I’m rather disappointed that Pullman allowed them to make that change to his story. I had expected that with his stamp of approval, we’d be getting a fairly close adaptation of the material and that really is the only reason to watch this film. But knowing this, I’ve got to admit I’m rather skeptical about the whole thing.
Posted by Marina on August 22nd, 2007Ian, I didnt consider the books preachy – I mean it has a message that you can find, and characters can be seen as allegories for other things, but I mean – think of Roald Dahl books and how even his whimsical fairytales build in some pretty dark characters that seem to be putting across messages. I consider any anti-religion theme to be intrenched very much in character and less in the over the top “ASLAN IS JESUS!” parts of Narnia. Also, the last part of the Narnia series is wayyyyy furhter over the top than I think anyone realizes compared to the first books.
Marina, my main skepticism with this whole thing is whether this will even be successful enough to do the other books. I felt the same way about Hitchhikers Guide – it was impossible to translate to the screen to please EVERYONE, and the first book isnt nearly as good as the other ones (save the last)
Posted by Goon on August 22nd, 2007hey thought I’d just chime in here, not a nasty message … just bringing the news from “the other side” …
I am not a catholic, but I believe the real point here is: Why would anyone want to market Atheism to children. Wouldn’t it be better for us to let them believe in God who loves them, protects them and has a purpose for their lives? This world is hard enough on kids, do we really need to remove every last shred of hope?
Sad to me how this Pullman guy is going to make millions this Christmas, making money off well meaning parents and grandparents looking to indulge their little darlings — and unwittingly leading them to a series of books that seek to steal away their optimism and childlike faith.
My personal opinion is that it is selfish of this author to project his bitterness toward children. They are too young to understand they are taking up his offense. Sure, he’s entitled to his own opinion in this free country — but targeting children with his evangelistic message of atheism is a cheap shot.
Consider a world 20 years from now, if no one believed in God. How would that impact the societal morality. I personally would not want to live in a country where no one believes in God.
Normal Christians don’t claim to be perfect, we are just grateful to Christ for forgiving our sins, and desire to live a humble life that brings honor to God. My goal each day is to identify and set aside my own selfish motives so that I can see clearly to be a blessing to those around me. I want to help others and lighten their load, bring hope to their lives and help them to know the FREEDOM of a forgiven, forgiving lifestyle.
Just an observation here, but I have known only 4 true atheists in my life and there is a real sadness about them. In 2 of them there is a deep and lasting bitterness. They do not seem FREE. They seem to be chained to their own thoughts. Maybe someday I will meet an atheist whose heart is free. And I pray each of you will also someday meet a real Christian.
Meanwhile, I must say this Pullman guy is selfish — children are an easy target. He is not trying to HELP or protect the children, he is just using them as a vehicle to get rich.
Posted by normal christian on October 27th, 2007Your post is like Christmas to me.
“Why would anyone want to market Atheism to children.”
Well first the books are more about pushing critical thinking and rationality, actual ideas commonly tied to atheism, rather than actual atheism itself.
“Wouldn’t it be better for us to let them believe in God who loves them, protects them and has a purpose for their lives?”
Some people don’t want to teach people things that aren’t true or cannot be proven for the sake of ‘comfort’. So many religious people are raised so sheltered from the real world that they grow up and they can’t deal with reality, always needing a big invisible brother to protect them from their problems. Its a genius move really – create a fake problem (sin) and create a fake solution.
“This world is hard enough on kids, do we really need to remove every last shred of hope?”
There’s something better than the ‘hope’ of just telling people theres another world after they die. Its called educating them and teaching them to be good for goodnesses sake and not because they’ll be punished if they don’t. I know so many Christians who think that if they became atheists they’d have nothing to live for and just go around killing people. If thats the case I hope you never leave your religion.
“..leading them to a series of books that seek to steal away their optimism and childlike faith.”
Everyone is born atheist
– religion is something pushed by the parent to a child who is NOWHERE near capable of truly understanding the meaning of the Bible, who has the gory and sexual parts hidden from them. You wouldnt force Rush Limbaugh or Michael Moore on a 6 year old, but you do pretty much the same thing when you teach a child that theres a lake of fire all their nonbelieving schoolchums go to. THAT is sick, ‘normalchristian’.
“My personal opinion is that it is selfish of this author to project his bitterness toward children.”
Fuck your idea of selfish. Christianity only works because it teaches people that when they die they get eternal bliss for towing the line, and can laugh at the damned from heaven. Ditto Islam. These religions want to condemn the selfishness and materialism of the world, but they’re just doing it for the sake of something even more selfish down the line. If Christians actually followed Jesus’ selfless example they’d sell all their possessions and give them to the poor, but conveniently that little part of the Bible doesnt seem to be very well remembered. Maybe you should take care of some of your own extremely rich ministers in their mega churches making millions of dollars a year preaching ‘truth’ before calling an author of fiction ’selfish’.
“They are too young to understand they are taking up his offense. Sure, he’s entitled to his own opinion in this free country  but targeting children with his evangelistic message of atheism is a cheap shot.”
I wish you could hear yourself and how all of this applies to your religion. Would you say the same thing about Narnia? I doubt it, because it benefits your own beliefs. I don’t care if children read either, because at the end of the day even though they both have overtones of specific world views, well so does everything elese, and some people can just see them as STORIES with generalized morals they can accept or not.
But I guess a Christian cant see that, because every piece of modern Christian media is evangelist first and story second, so they assume everyone else is that way too. It’s pretty sad, and exactly why they think JK Rowling is a Satanist and such.
“Consider a world 20 years from now, if no one believed in God. How would that impact the societal morality. I personally would not want to live in a country where no one believes in God.”
I dont want people to abandon religion so much as I want people to abandon the mindset that causes them to latch onto it. There would always be war, but without religion we would not be in Iraq. Men of God blowing each other the fuck up. Nice. Find me an atheist suicide bomber – it doesnt happen.
“Normal Christians don’t claim to be perfect”
And yet it doesnt stop you from being completely condescending.
“Just an observation here, but I have known only 4 true atheists in my life and there is a real sadness about them.”
Thanks for making my point for me.
“They do not seem FREE. They seem to be chained to their own thoughts.”
You don’t see how one statement contradicts the other, and thats what I find sad. Yes, when you have your own thoughts, life can be more difficult. But being able to explore the world and pave your own way being free from religion is its own piece of beauty, not always easy, but if you’ve given up your own thoughts to make life more comfortable, don’t go and tell me that being blind and happy makes something more true. I can point at smiling people of religions and irreligions, even Satanists, it doesnt make something correct. Buddhists for example to me are ALWAYS… ALWAYS the happiest more well adjusted people I’ve seen, but I think their reincarnation mumbo jumbo is full of shit… and are you aware that Buddhists are technically atheists? Somehow these people without a God manage to find peace in a different way, but oh no we can’t live in a world without God, those Buddhists would just drive it into chaos!
“Maybe someday I will meet an atheist whose heart is free. And I pray each of you will also someday meet a real Christian.”
You’re full of so many fun Christian catchphrases. Every time I hear this someone has a different idea of a “real Christian”. Every “real Christian” is whoever agrees with their specific views. if a Christian does something terrible or is found out to be ripping off someone, or are simply as nasty as say, Fred Phelps – oh just say they’re not a “real Christian” and it all goes away. What a convenient out. Its easy to see how Christianity survives when they build so many perfect little excuses for themselves. Do Muslims say the same thing about themselves? Do you buy it when they say it?
“He is not trying to HELP or protect the children, he is just using them as a vehicle to get rich.”
PUllman is rich because people liked his stories, not because parents were attempting to push a mindset on their kids. Stuff like Narnia, Harry Potter, etc flourish because the kids decide what they like and become enthusiastic about it. You have unwarranted cycnicism about Pullman, whose book I can pretty much guarantee you havent read and have only judged based on what you have heard about it from well, other Christians. There’s plenty of golden rule morality within Pullmans books that could be considered helpful, atheism is simply a lack of belief in god – it doesnt have its own dogma to replace morality, it just operates on a humanist ‘look out for one another’ level. oh so selfish, and not helpful at all, right?
Posted by Goon on October 27th, 2007“Just an observation here, but I have known only 4 true atheists in my life and there is a real sadness about them.â€Â
Ignorance is bliss.
Posted by Henrik on October 27th, 2007I wish I could be so brief.
Posted by Goon on October 27th, 2007Nothing is more disgusting to me than christian forgiveness.
Forgiveness should not free to all because of human sacrifice.
This is a barbaric belief based on blood ritual and is perverse.
If you want your children to believe that forgiveness is based on human and/or animal sacrifice – be my guest. I would argue that forgiveness should be based on measured judgement and honest repentance, not by the ancient witchery of spilling blood.
Posted by dougnagy on October 27th, 2007no kidding. christians with their blood ceremonies like vampires, using militaristic terms to describe their faith, ‘taking up the armor of god’, God’s Army, groups like BattleCry ( http://battlecry.com ), pretty much all of “onward christian soldiers”
creepy
Posted by Goon on October 27th, 2007I already feel like I’m in the “lions den” so to speak, but I hope my words will not be disregarded because of my beliefs. To start, I am a Christian and have been since the age of five. I was raised in a Christian home and feel like I have a pretty good head on my shoulders. I came across this site because a Christian friend sent me an email forward talking about this film. The people that were talking in the forward were trying to rally people together to boycott this film (which I think is ridiculous). Below is the email that I received and my response:
There is some information about a movie with Nicole Kidman. This movie is based
on a series of books by an atheist named Philip Pullman who has said that he
wants to kill God in the minds of children. He is attacking Christianity and he is
somebody whom we all need to be aware of. I have included another link
and information below. If you could pass this information on to other believers
to get the word out that would be great. Pullman wrote a trilogy and so far
New Line Cinema has not signed on to do either of the other two books yet.
If this movie does poorly at the box office then hopefully they will not.
Hope everyone is doing well. Take Care and God Bless.
Atheist Wants to ‘Kill God’ in the Minds of Children
By Sharon Hughes
Philip Pullman, atheist and author of “His Dark Materials” trilogy says he wants to kill God in the minds of children — and one way is through the new movie based the first book, “The Golden Compus,” coming out this December.
His books are more popular in England than Harry Potter books, and the hope is that the movies will rival “The Chronicles of Narnia.”
While the Potter books introduce children to witchcraft, Pullman’s books take it farther.
For instance, in “The Golden Compus” he talks about demons — children’s demons. In the movie trailer you can click on “meet your demon” which tells you in order to discover your demon you have to look into your heart and answer 20 questions.
Some may be tempted to say that as an atheist he doesn’t believe in God and therefore wouldn’t believe in demons, so it’s just fantasy. But is it?
According Bill Donahue of the Catholic League on FOX News today, Pullman said, “It is my goal to go after Christianity, I want God to be dead in my works. I want to undermine Christianity.” They’ve put together a 23-page booklet on this subject. The Catholic League wants Christians to stay away from this movie precisely because it knows that the film is bait for the books: unsuspecting parents who take their children to see the movie may be impelled to buy the three books as a Christmas present.
Parents beware this Christmas season. Don’t underestimate the power of ‘the dark material’ in his works.
And my response:
I don’t know…when things like this start circulating, I just start to laugh…there’s always something that Christian advocates are taking up arms against…Whether it be that they tell us to boycott coke because they emboss Harry Potter across their bottles or something more serious like picketing outside a place of business it all seems pretty ridiculous to me and not a move that tends to draw unbelievers to us. What the real issue should be is to take time to sit down with your child (I’m assuming this is the point of this particular person’s tirade) and talk with them..I know radical concept…for many years people have been taking shots at the source of the entertainment or video game or whatever else that concerned parents or people have to place the blame of why their child acts the way they do, or why that guy killed 20 college students…I highly doubt that video games and movies caused them to do these things…I’m sure if you really look back into their lives and start looking at how they were raised (if they were loved, cared for, paid attention to, talked to) then you would find the answer…now what does this mean to us as Christians? Should we totally cut off our children from watching said movies or playing said video games? I think it should be left up to the parent to parent their children by what convictions that they hold…but to be honest, your child will probably just go over someone else’s house and watch that rated R flick or play that gory video game. I think I was raised pretty well and my parents were involved in most of what I was doing and I still watched what I probably wasn’t supposed to and played games I wasn’t supposed to and I turned out just fine…I’m not saying it’s easy to raise a child, but be prepared before you do that it takes a lot more than just trying to get a movie banned or boycotting socks because Harry Potter is embroidered across it. I personally will probably see the film because I am a movie buff and have probably seen numerous films that you would gawk at for seeing, but I appreciate the art form…plus, what do we have to talk about to the atheists if we stick our thumbs in our ears and go “lalalalalala”…we look like fools…plus, this is the first I’m hearing about this movie so I doubt that it will be that big in the theaters…Hollywood has a way of taking a good book and ripping it to shreds through film which, every now and again is a good thing, but most of the time a bad thing.
Unfortunately, what most people witness from Christianity is the controversial people that have big mouths…and while there are a good number of people who support those big mouths, there are a good number of us who don’t agree and aren’t out to judge or burn books or boycott movies.
Posted by Josh on October 29th, 2007thanks for your post Josh. first off Bill Donahue is fucking clown shoes. He attacks everything – he puts out reports on Bill Maher, attacks Louis CK’s tv show, spent valuable time and money protesting Joan Osborne’s “one of us”. he’s also pretty much an anti semite.
“”Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. It’s not a secret, OK? And I’m not afraid to say it. That’s why they hate this movie.” (on Passion of the Christ)
he’s a nutbar that fits into the upper crust of the nutbar catholic church perfectly.
Here’s what I think about ‘messages’ and children. yes, idealistically we shouldnt push ideas on children that they cant comprehend. However, you cant speak too far down to kids, you should challenge them to reach beyond their level, which is one reason say, the Pixar movies, are so well praised. Likewise, many times kids rise to the challenge of immensely long books like the Harry Potter series, and thats a great thing.
As for the messages themselves, one isolated message in the library of ‘heather has two mommies’ isnt necessarily going to sway someone one way or the other. simply being exposed to anything isnt going to corrupt someone forever, and i’m sick of religious groups pretending otherwise. now if someone is constantly exposed to only one message and shut off from exploring anything else, then you have true brainwashing, then you have at the same time the few who violently rebel. This is the sort of thing to look out for, and exactly why “Jesus Camp” freaked so many people the fuck out. There has to be room for children to breathe and discover things for themselves.
Posted by Goon on October 29th, 2007but I will say this Josh, when people like yourself DON’T speak out against other christians, well then ‘liberal’ christians are pretty much worthless and only help the causes of fuckwits like Donahue and Pat Robertson. When other christians dont say “hey now, thats not what i think” all they’ll do is cite how many christians there are in the country and claim to speak for all of them, which has carried a lot of power over the years. what you’re seeing from atheists these days is not so much some new awakening rather than finally realizing theres enough of them out there to push back as a group. atheists arent out to take your rights away, we’re looking to show people that their rights end where ours begin, that being in the majority doesnt give them the right to dictate policy based solely on religious beliefs rather than logical mundane reasoning.
Posted by Goon on October 29th, 2007Thanks for responding to that, I was afraid I was going to get flamed for a minute there. I agree with what you are saying. I don’t really listen to all of these nutcakes like Donahue (this is the first time I’m hearing about him or what he stands for) and don’t watch much TV. Every now and again I will see people like Pat Robertson saying something that TOTALLY is not what Jesus was about or what Christianity stands for and I whince because I know that three or four million people either just got introduced to what they think Christianity stands for or it’s just further cemented into their heads that we are all the same (little Pat Robertson’s/Jerry Falwell’s/Bill Donahue’s. I personally enjoyed Louis C.K.’s show and was a little angry it got canceled after the first season (I enjoy comedians that think outside the box). I, along with several other Christians, are doing our best to educate the masses that what they see on tv or hear from a lot of close minded Christians isn’t what Christianity stands for. By masses I mean both Christians and non-Christians. I mean to start out with, in the Bible the Pharisees asked Jesus what the the greatest commandment was and he said, and I’m paraphrasing, “Love God and Love each other as you love yourselves”. I think that a lot of Christians miss this when they are taking shots at others that don’t believe what we belive…they forget that we are supposed to love everyone as we love ourselves. I’m not saying it’s easy, but I’m trying my best to do it. If more Christians were like this, I think there would be a lot less judging and a lot more loving and treating everyone as equals. Not saying we can’t have discussions or arguments, but it would be a lot more civil.
Posted by Josh on October 29th, 2007To jump in real quick, I’m producing a documentary about this very topic (secular vs. christian perspectives on pop culture, among other things) and would love to get any/all of your opinions on film.
If you’re interested, post your video response (to The Golden Compass, this topic, or religious fanaticism in general) on YouTube and email me at david@perinipros.com to take a look.
You can find out more about the film project by joining the Facebook group, “The Unchurched.”
Posted by David Perini on October 29th, 2007Just curious why Josh would even care to consider himself christian? Is it the commandment of jesus that makes you love?
I hate to be the one pissing in the soup of this generally benevolent conversation, but fence-sitters like this piss me off just as much as radicals.
Posted by Henrik on October 30th, 2007Henrik — I’m sure Josh can defend himself, but “Christian” is an extremely generic term that covers just about anyone who happens to believe that Jesus Christ did exist as the ’son of God’, regardless of their opinion of organized religion or political leanings.
The only way to really “fence-sit” on an issue like this is to proclaim yourself agnostic, saying “this could be right, or that could be right, but I don’t know yet.” And is that really something so negative as to piss you off? At least it shows a desire to think through things logically.
Posted by David Perini on October 30th, 2007the big problem with ‘christian’ as a term, more than other labels like ‘goth’ or ‘emo’ or something like that is christians are so powerful as a movement that one extremist christian can cite the label to speak for so many others and in a technical way have stats to back himself up, even if most people think they’re full of shit.
a problem though is that when you break down all these other segments of christianity into specific dominations, theres this weird infighting about really strange little differences in both ritual, methods of evangelism, etc that put them at war with each other sometimes. my grandfather is a baptist and my other grandfather is wesleyan, which is not all that different, and they still hate each other over strange little crap.
its a catch 22, their unity hurts non-christians, and their lack of christianity hurts christians as a force. for my sake i’d rather have them fighting each other
– however their infighting also hurts me because when you talk to a christian you dont know which approach youre taking in a debate or on certain points, as theres so much leeway for christians to say “oh well, we dont believe the Great Flood was worldwide” or this or that. I mean, to me the Bible is pretty clearly against homosexuality, and i dont like that, however when i see a christian who is fine with gay people, i may agree with them on that overall issue, but i’m at odds with them at the fact that they call themselves christian even though its against homosexuality… and coming full circle, some christians have their own decided ‘outs’ from that argument – that it was misinterpreted in their POV, or to ignore the Old Testament…
Posted by Goon on October 30th, 2007which just raises further questions, and should take you to a place where maybe you can understand the frustration of being a non believer talking with believers.
Goon and all others I am a christian and have been reading all of the comments and I agree there is NO place in GOD’s kingdom for fence riders you are either wqith him or against him. Ino nothing eihter about hte film or the books so I cannot judge on this. But if it is about athiest and drawing children away from God then ” as for me and my house” we will NOT see it. I will hbe praying for you all and this film as well as further hollywood films that God would only allow to be put onthe big screen what would honor HIM.
Posted by sherri on November 3rd, 2007“you are either wqith him or against him.”
retarded mindset many christians have that pretty much shows me how so many dont see any shades of grey in the world. everything is right or wrong. pfft.
Christians like you think atheists are ‘against god’. I’m no more against God than I am against the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. very nice ideas that promise very nice things, but in reality those things are acted out through other people. People have asked me if I’m angry with God. While theres many christian ideas I dont agree with, how can I really be angry with something I dont believe in? Why do people think its just passionate rebellion rather than thought out conclusion of disbelief? would that undermine your own faith that much?
“I will hbe praying for you”
I’ll be thinking for you.
“God would only allow to be put onthe big screen what would honor HIM”
once again, Christian art is evangelist first, story second. Christians actually look forward to a world where everyone holds the same beliefs in some fake homogenous goopy unity. That scares me. What would any of us be without opposition to our own ideas?
Every Christian movie out there is either an apocalypse story a la Omega Code, Left Behind or the Van Impe productions, or biblical recreation of events. Real creative. The ones that have strayed from this, like Super Christian (no, im not kidding), or kids fluff like McGee & Me or Bibleman, can’t carry themselves at all without mundane ideas to oppose. Fuck, even 7th heaven had controversy. What does a Christian movie look like that has nothing to oppose, and would only showcase happy families being nice to each other? Based on what actually sells in the Christian movie industry, noone wants to see that at all.
Everyone wants violence, opposition, sci fi, terror. Christians just seem to give themselves convenient biblical excuses to indulge their primal instincts when it comes to entertainment
Posted by Goon on November 3rd, 2007“There will always be good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things. But the only way to make good people do evil things is with religion.” – Steven Weinberg
anyways, heres quotes from Pullman about atheism and his books:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21595083/
Pullman not promoting atheism in ‘Golden Compass’
Author on the anti-Catholic comments and how he imagined the epic world
The club’s fall book was “The Golden Compass,†the first in Philip Pullman’s “His Dark Materials†trilogy. In the first volume, Pullman invites readers into a world as convincing and thoroughly realized as Narnia, Earthsea or Redwall. Here lives an 11-year-old orphaned ward named Lyra Belacqua, whose carefree life among the scholars at Oxford’s Jordan College is shattered by the arrival of two powerful visitors. First, her fearsome uncle, Lord Asriel, appears with evidence of mystery and danger in the far North, including photographs of a mysterious celestial phenomenon called Dust and the dim outline of a city suspended in the Aurora Borealis that he suspects is part of an alternate universe. He leaves Lyra in the care of Mrs. Coulter, an enigmatic scholar and explorer who offers to give Lyra the attention her uncle has long refused her.
If you read “The Golden Compass†as part of Al’s Book Club, you may have some questions about the book and the author. Some eager readers sent in questions for Philip. In his answers, he discusses those anti-Catholic comments, how he imagined such an epic world, and how he came up with the daemon characters. Read his responses:
How do you respond to the claim that your books are anti-Catholic and promote atheism? Lyndsay Petersen, Parkersburg, Iowa
Hello, Lyndsay: In the world of the story  Lyra’s world  there is a church that has acquired great political power, rather in the way that some religions in our world have done at various times, and still do (think of the Taliban in Afghanistan). My point is that religion is at its best  it does most good  when it is farthest away from political power, and that when it gets hold of the power to (for example) send armies to war or to condemn people to death, or to rule every aspect of our lives, it rapidly goes bad. Sometimes people think that if something is done in the name of faith or religion, it must be good. Unfortunately, that isn’t true; some things done in the name of religion are very bad. That was what I was trying to describe in my story.
I think the qualities that the books celebrate are those such as kindness, love, courage and courtesy too. And intellectual curiosity. All these good things. And the qualities that the books attack are cold-heartedness, tyranny, close-mindedness, cruelty, the things that we all agree are bad things.
Is there an underlying message for atheism in your book or did you simply want to write a fantasy story, like Tolkien? Kim Mapstead, Friday Harbor, Wash.
Hello, Kim: What I was mainly doing, I hope, was telling a story, but not a story like Tolkien’s. (To be honest I don’t much care for “The Lord of the Rings.â€Â) As for the atheism, it doesn’t matter to me whether people believe in God or not, so I’m not promoting anything of that sort. What I do care about is whether people are cruel or whether they’re kind, whether they act for democracy or for tyranny, whether they believe in open-minded enquiry or in shutting the freedom of thought and expression. Good things have been done in the name of religion, and so have bad things; and both good things and bad things have been done with no religion at all. What I care about is the good, wherever it comes from.
How do you imagine such an epic world in “The Golden Compass� Did you look for it or did it come to you? Muhaimin
Hello, Muhaimin: This is an interesting question, because it’s something I’ve often wondered about myself. When I’m telling a story I know, with part of my mind, that I’m making it up; but with another part of my mind, it feels as if I’m discovering something that is already there, in some mysterious way, and I’m learning about it rather than inventing it. So I can’t give you a definite answer! The one thing I do know is that if I don’t work steadily and try to write every day, no story will get written at all. So I try to do that.
I have always wondered about a bear’s armor. It is said that armor is the soul of the bear, yet doesn’t Iorek forge a replacement set? Perhaps I misunderstood something from the text, but if the armor is taken from a bear, does creating a new set give the bear his soul back? Paul Jacobs, Corvallis, Ore.
Hello Paul: Thanks for the question. When Iorek said that to Lyra  describing his armour as his soul  he was using a metaphor to express how important the armour was to him. Each bear makes his own armour, piece by piece, and gradually acquires the full set as he grows to maturity; so naturally it’s very important and special. The forging scene involving Iorek doesn’t involve his armour, but Will’s Subtle Knife.
Dear Mr. Pullman, My class is reading “The Golden Compass†and we were wondering how did you come with the concept of daemons? What inspired you? Hayden (age
Annadale, Va.
Hello, Hayden: Thank you for the question, and please give my greetings to your class and to your teacher. The idea of daemons came to me very suddenly and from nowhere that I can be sure of. I wrote the first chapter of “The Golden Compass†several times before I got it right, and at first it wasn’t going well at all. I didn’t know why until I realized that Lyra had to have a companion to speak to and share things with, and suddenly this daemon idea just came into my mind. It was an exciting moment, and it made the whole story come into focus for me. I’m still discovering new things to do with the idea, and I’m writing about them in a book that will be called “The Book of Dust.†But I’m a long way from finishing that yet.
Posted by Goon on November 3rd, 2007Christianity is a black/white view of life. You can not expect christians to see shades of grey in their beliefs or view of the earth. They either believe in everything or nothing. Otherwise they are pathetic specks of human trash who try to cover all bases by panting to everything.
If you want to believe that there is an afterlife that is more worthy of attention than your actual life, feel free. Live that way, and live with my utter disgust and ridicule. You are a sad specimen of our race.
If you want to believe that there is nothing beyond the life you are living now, and that this life deserves all your attention, constantly coping with the situations and emotions that you experience through it, feel free. Live that way, and live with my utter compassion, admiration (if you live in somewhere other than northern europe) and the fellowship that comes with my understanding. You are a magnificent example of our race.
We are the governing string of monkeys. Our rationality and ability to constantly realize and cope with our sorroundings empower us with a hard-line of ruling over this planet. Power to the people, and to the right-minded.
Posted by Henrik on November 3rd, 2007I dont think they are specks of human trash. i just think all the good they claim comes from their religion can be done through secular means, that theres common sense evolutionary reasons to be kind to one another, the golden rule, etc. – i think its better to be good for the sake of being good instead of just because some intergalactic boss said so.
Posted by Goon on November 3rd, 2007“anti-religion” is scary? I’ll tell you what’s much scarier. Religion.
Posted by briantw on November 5th, 2007GOD will deal with all.
Posted by stater on November 8th, 2007i get the feeling this is going to be one of those threads that doesnt die, with some religious case who doesnt otherwise read the site stumbling upon it from somwhereorother with the intent to set us yahoos straight.
Posted by Goon on November 8th, 2007I hope religious cases read all the comments though.
You shouldn’t lose your hope in humanity Goon.
Posted by Henrik on November 8th, 2007Do you know where you will go when you die?
Posted by SHAWN on November 8th, 2007The same place you were before you were born. Nowhere.
Posted by Jay C. on November 8th, 2007You have a choice
Posted by bold on November 8th, 2007What did I choose to do before I was born?
Posted by Jay C. on November 8th, 2007ALL I CAN SAY IS HAVE FAITH
Posted by bold on November 8th, 2007“ALL I CAN SAY IS HAVE FAITH”
We know.
Posted by Henrik on November 8th, 2007OBVIOUSLY YOU DONT
Posted by bold on November 8th, 2007“bold
November 8th, 2007 16:44e
ALL I CAN SAY IS I’M GULLIBLE”
quoted for truth.
Posted by Goon on November 8th, 2007If we Christians are WRONG….what do we have to lose??? BUT what if you are wrong?
Posted by Rachel on November 21st, 2007That’s one of the most stock (and dumbest) retorts a christian could make.
its called Pascal’s Wager. you act like its a 50/50% safe choice, when theres literally billions of possibilities of afterlifes. statistically you are .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent more likely to be right, and thats being very generous.
even if a god exists that doesnt mean it gives a crap about you, we could be less important than ants as far as its concerned. did you ever consider that?
how arrogant are we to think that we’re the center of the universe, the chosen animal…
which brings us back to your question
“what if you’re wrong?”
what if you’re wrong about Islam? what if you’re wrong about Mormonism? what if you’re wrong about Zeus or the billions of other possibilities? are you prepared for your supposed punishment if YOU’RE wrong? or are you simply counting on being a good person and having faith in general to save your ass? sorry Rachel, you’re gambling about as much as we are if you want to consider it that. i can counter your possibility with the situation that there is a god and that he doesnt want to believed in, and those that do believe in him will be punished. not to mention the zillions of other likely scenarios where you simply know the same thing you did before you were born – nothing.
you have no idea, just faith – and faith is just a license to believe without any good reason.
next stock response?
Posted by Goon on November 21st, 2007Why are you a christian? Because you’re scared? I don’t know how old you are, but once you reach a certain age (say 14), being scared of a book is pretty pathetic. Being scared of a book to the point of changing your life because of it is ridiculous.
But it’s like knocking a wall down with a spunge to teach rationality and common sense to christians.
I have a feeling this is the Rachel from Jesus Camp. She probably got another ‘way to be obedient’ after posting this little insightful comment.
Posted by Henrik on November 21st, 2007As for what you will lose… Your life.
Posted by Henrik on November 21st, 2007I posted a comment and it was deleted!
So – this is a test…
Posted by 506Kelvin on November 22nd, 2007i found out today that the local catholic schoolboard is trying to ban the Golden Compass from its libraries.
now its obvious why they’d do such a thing, and if they were were actually self funded i wouldnt bother with it, but the catholic school system is funded by public tax dollars – where do they get off banning books? I doubt Narnia would ever be removed from the public school library (and if it was i’d be upset about that too) and yet they think they have the right to remove access to this.
Posted by Goon on November 23rd, 2007Three questions:
1) Who deleted my previous post?
2) Why was my previous post deleted?
3) Goon: Why are you so much against Christianity?
Thanks!
Posted by 506Kelvin on November 24th, 2007your comment isnt in the sites moderation list, and i certainly didnt delete it, and i dont think Sean or Jay would delete anyones post. im not saying the fuckup came from your end, but it may have.
as to your question – i could turn it around – why do christians care so much about atheists? there are 10 us states where its in their state constitution that an atheist cannot hold public office, christians make laws against sodomy, homosexuality, interfering in gay rights on beliefs that only come from their religion. your rights end where mine begin, and in a country where the majority of people at least claim to be Christian, I object to people enforcing their beliefs on the basis of their faith alone.
As for the religion itself, I simply dislike it for the same reason I dislike any other religion – its not true and i think it hurts people.
Posted by Goon on November 24th, 2007To be fair, Sean accidentally deleted a comment of mine in an attempt to get rid of spam, so it’s possible that has happened to 506Kelvin’s comment.
Posted by Henrik on November 24th, 2007yes, if you post a bunch of links in one post, it usually ends up in the moderation queue trying to protect the site from spam. some things may end up being deleted that way by accident.
Posted by Goon on November 24th, 2007all i can say is…it’s horrible to see how goon and those other people can talk bout christians. i dont go to church alot but its just sad to read what u write. believe what you want, there is a God and i believe in him. When the rapture comes you’ll see.
Posted by LJ on November 28th, 2007give me a break LJ. if you believe in the rapture then you also believe unbelievers will be left behind to suffer, and that when they die they will pay eternally for finite crimes. and you have the nerve to call us harsh?
Posted by Goon on November 28th, 2007Hello, Been reading all your comments againt my question…WHO LOSES! Christians don’t have to be afraid…If our Jesus is our GOD come to us in the flesh as HE said HE is…and we believe it…we have no fear. We are no longer victims, we are free to live out our lives in TRUTH! By the way I’m 65 and HE has never let me down! Even through the tough times!
Posted by Rachel on December 5th, 2007Well all I can say is your “Freedom” from my perspective is anything but, your actual decision to believe is based entirely in fear of hell and greed of heaven – pure carrot and stick.
if it makes you feel better than good for you. that doesnt make it any more truthful. Scientologists believe in all sorts of wacky shit and they claim to be on a bridge to freedom. So what? But if you’re enforcing your own sense of comfort and belief on other people, based purely on dogma and without secular rationality, then well – you are a problem
and if you’re 65 I highly doubt you give a crap about anything else on this site and are only here to preach and proselytize.
Posted by Goon on December 5th, 2007We live in a post “Christian Culture”. People have a lot of different views when it comes to God, but I think the real issue here is ignorance. Sure whether you’re a Christian, Jew, Atheist, or whaterver. This country is about freedom! I heard someone say that, “Tolerance of intolerance is cowardice.” It’s the cowards that don’t want to tolerate someone else’s belief. Yeah there’s extremists that we shouldn’t tolereate that come to destroy what we stand for, but for the most part us Americans tolerate everyone. If people are too stupid to do some homework and learn what the book or movie is about, they don’t have a right to be upset. It’s their own fault right? Yeah this world is in a mess all the murder, crime, sexuality, drugs. You see all that stuff on tv anyway. You can choose to filter it or watch it. Don’t blame Hollywood for what comes out, blame yourselves for being too stupid to do some homework. I’m not for or against this movie, i’ll probably watch it. All I’m saying is whether you believe in God or not isn’t the issue. The issue here is tolerance. When someone makes something creative and entertaining we let our fundamentists ways of thinking belittle someone else’s art. I myself am Not an atheist, but I do respect their beliefs even if I don’t agree wholeheartily, why can’t you just accept people for talet and creativity instead of protesting all the time. I believe the Jesus in the Bible would’ve loved and accepted everyone even atheist. But most so called Christians can’t accept this. Youre gay so your automatically goig to Hell, your an atheist reprobate you’ll never change, you’re a drug addict you’ll never be free, etc. Stop pointing fingers and love people like Jesus did.
Posted by Anonymous on December 6th, 2007I feel so sorry for you Goon, for some reason you just do not want to believe that there is a Jesus Christ. Don’t get me wrong, I am not telling you to believe in Jesus because I know that you won’t listen to me. The only one that can save you, is the Holy Spirit and I will pray for your sake that He do.
Unfortunately the devil has told him so many lies about Christianity and he does not realise it. The devil goes around to see what or who he can kill, steel, deceive and destroy. The only one who can reveal the thruth to him, is once again the Holy Spirit. Please pray for Goon.
I know you will have something to say about my comment, but I hope God will do great things in your life, because He loves you and desires after a relationship with you
Posted by Dané on December 7th, 2007Why do you believe in the holy spirit? Because of the book? Show me the proof and I may show a little respect for you. Otherwise you’re as ridiculous as the guy proclaiming that Sauron is coming to take over the world on july 15th 2009.
Posted by Henrik on December 7th, 2007“do not want to believe”
its not about want Dane. You cant WILL belief. all these people that pray on their death bed, thinking they can outsmart God, or win their way into heaven on technicalities – i mean what the fuck is up with that?
you either believe something or you don’t, and you do so based on the evidence. I dont reject god because some dickhead somewhere believes in it, or to get back at some relative, or just for rebellions sake. the argument for him and the evidence simply does not hold water, period – and ironically the quickest way to realize this is to actually read the Bible. if you want to waste this only one guaranteed precious life with your paranoid fantasies, thats your choice. If you can read the Old Testament and not see that your God is essentially a Hitler not very much deserving of worship even if he exists, that again is your choice – and a very very disturbing one at that.
Posted by Goon on December 7th, 2007Henrik: you DON’T believe Sauron is coming back? what are you, some kind of crackpot? Everyone knows that if you dont pray 8 times a day towards Rivendell you’ll be damned to walk the earth as a Wraith til the end of eternity!
Posted by Goon on December 7th, 2007Yeah I guess I better do it since it’s a 50/50 shot that it might happen.
Posted by Henrik on December 7th, 2007If i didnt believe in the return of Sauron to judge the living and the dead (who reside in the mountains), I think I’d just go around killing and raping people. Its the only thing that keeps me moral.
Posted by Goon on December 7th, 2007These people seem to be coming off as trolls at this point. Random people coming out of nowhere to throw out quick one lines about how “Jesus Christ is going to save everyone” (He won’t cause he’s dead.) Seems kind of odd at this point. Unless of course christians are starting to wage war against filmjunk.
And its funny, reading these responses, because I have a few religious friends. Particularly catholic and mormon. And yes, they are just as seemingly blind and simple minded on life and how human interaction would be nothing but chaotic and evil if there were no god.
Posted by Captain N on December 7th, 2007Seems like everyone just wants to argue. Give me some proof! I wan’t to see you give me some valid evidence why God doesn’t exist. You probably just read some book like “The God Dilusion” with a guy bent on convincing people towards Atheism using other people’s personal opinions and so called research. If you would reasearch the Bible more thuroughly you would find there’s more to it that stories about a god bent on destroying everyone. I know you probably have a valid argument for what you believe, but instead of reading all the garbage that the “religious fanatics” write, why don’t you study these things for yourself instead of narrowmindedly making comments about things you know nothing about. It takes faith to believe Atheism, just like it take faith to believe in a God that loves you. Here’s the logic behind it all. How much do you know? Considering all the knowledge in the universe. The quantom mechanics of how things work, how thing live and are created. Out of all the knowledge in all the world, what percentage do you think you know? Don’t you think that outside of that insignificant portion of knowledge that you know, that God exists. Would you reject God only to find out that there’s so much you don’t know about Him?
Posted by JT on December 10th, 2007“I wan’t to see you give me some valid evidence why God doesn’t exist.”
You’re the one making the claim here, bub – claiming there is a God is an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. The onus is on you, not me. See, the problem with some of you wackos is that you think that since there’s so many of you Christians, that your view is the default position, and any dissent is the one that has to prove itself. That’s not how things work. You saying there’s a God is like me saying theres a Chocolate Dragon in my garage. The onus is on the person making the extraordinary claim. Make the case, or get lost.
The rest of your post is equally ridiculous, a greatest hits package, or probably more accurately a really solid EP, of bad believer’s arguments.
“You probably just read some book like “The God Dilusion†with a guy bent on convincing people towards Atheism using other people’s personal opinions and so called research.”
I have read the God Delusion, but have disbelieved long before discovering people like Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, etc. – The best road to disbelieving the Bible is to actually read it. Its flat out ridiculous, contradictory, and for such a ‘good book’ its actually ripe with rotten advice, and in the case of the OT theres well, a lot of evil passed off as law.
“It takes faith to believe Atheism”
By breaking down the word itself, atheism is an absense of theism. Its a lack of faith. Calling atheism a faith or religion is like saying NOT collecting stamps is a hobby. Does it take faith for you to not believe in Santa Claus, or do you disbelieve in Santa Claus because you simply know better through investigation?
“Out of all the knowledge in all the world, what percentage do you think you know?”
Not much. But Christians actually are the ones claiming to know more. They claim that humans are this especially blessed race to the extent they have a direct relationship with the creator of the universe, that this supreme being gives a shit about their love life, their taxes, their football games. THATS arrogant. As an atheist we reject the man made religions, are pretty much agnostic about every other possibility – as in, we admit we dont know about the zillions of other possibilites.
AND IF YOU HAD READ THE COMMENTS IN THIS THREAD YOUD HAVE SEEN ME POINT THAT OUT A BUNCH OF TIMES ALREADY.
now JT, either you actually read these posts and take some effort of replying to points, or well, fuck the hell off. you cant just come back and repeat the same old crap and ignore the other arguments.
btw:
“Considering… …the quantom mechanics of how things work” – JT
“Anyone who says that they understand Quantum Mechanics does not understand Quantum Mechanics”- Richard Feynman
If you’re going to boil down your arguments to God based on your own personal ’spiritual’ experiences, then thats where things end. I can’t tell you whatever you experience isn’t real, but you can’t use your own testimony as evidence for its truth – i can counter any ‘i just felt filled with the spirit’ with a scientologist who just ‘knows’ that the Tech is working.
now again – either respond to peoples points or gtfo.
Posted by Goon on December 10th, 2007Bravo. Good argument, but my whole point was to get you to admit that you don’t know everything and that your knowledge is limited, as is mine. I’m not here to critisize you for your beliefs, I rather commend your for doing your research. I could spend hours giving you evidence about the case for a creator, but you would only refuse it because you don’t choose to be open minded about the things of God. Your presuppositions about God have already blinded you from seeing my evidence. I could give you all the scientific evidence and all the historical, and archeological evidence you want but you’ll only turn it down because you don’t want to hear my side. You label all Christians as Fundamentalist Wackos, but you know nothing about what the Bible really stands for, or who God is. You know nothing about me or my background. I’m done trying to convince you. You’re too scared to hear my thoughts on this matter. You reject God because you see christians that are ignorant and try to imopose controlls on everyone, you’ve probably never met a believer that cares about you’re soul like some have written and even prayed for you. You reject that love because you’ve been hurt by so called christians trying to change you, and controll you, but that’s not what serving God is all about. Here’s a simple analogy for you Goon. The inventor makes something great and sells it to people so they can benifit from that item. Others have no clue what this item can do unless they consult the owners manual and look to the inventor for how to use it. Instead we let man try to rationalize and try to figure things out on thier own. This leaves us frustrated, and confused. What the inventor wanted us to have is now broken and destroyed. Most of us have destroyed our belief in a creator because man has told us how things sould be without consulting the great Inventor himself. I’ll give you all the evidence and arguments for or against God if you want it. But I don’t thing that will change your hardened heart towards God. I will pray for you Goon, not for the sake of converting you, but for the sake of letting you see another side to God that you’ve never seen before. There are Christian people th
Posted by JT on December 11th, 2007oooopppps. People that love you, and will continue to pray for you. If you want to see my evidence and research I will gladly show it to you.
Posted by JT on December 11th, 2007“my whole point was to get you to admit that you don’t know everything”
something I’d already done, which you didn’t read, and now claim to be responsible for.
“…you would only refuse it because you don’t choose to be open minded about the things of God.”
What exactly does ‘open minded’ mean to someone like you – as in take a leap of faith and ask for no evidence?
“You label all Christians as Fundamentalist Wackos, but you know nothing about what the Bible really stands for, or who God is.”
You’re the one making the suppositions here, buddy. You act like I’ve never been in a church, wasn’t raised christian, never read the Bible. For your information there are plenty of us out there that have heard the arguments for God, been raised to believe in god, think most christians are actually pretty decent people, but still don’t believe. But I guess it doesnt rub people the right way to think someone can get by and be happy without the invisible big brother.
“You’re too scared to hear my thoughts on this matter.”
You’re the one not presenting the evidence, and giving excuses for not bringing it – don’t call me scared.
“You reject God because you see christians that are ignorant…”
Here you go again.
“you’ve probably never met a believer that cares about you’re soul like some have written and even prayed for you.”
Again, you have no idea. I know plenty of very nice Christians. I know some very nice Muslims. Even Hindus, and especially Buddhists. That doesn’t make anything they say any more or less true.
As for you being a wacko, yes, I’d probably paint you that way – praying for strangers over the Internet and throwing all the assumptions that its not really about careful studied disbelief, but revenge on some dickhead christian.
Do I believe a lot of Christians out there are wackos? You bet I do – I just need to turn on the 700 Club or 100 Huntley Street and stare into their dead doll’s eyes. But spare me this ‘hardened heart’ shit as an excuse from giving anyone any evidence. Again, its your onus to
a) prove God exists
b) prove the God of the Bible is actually worth worshiping. If you give any creedence to the OT at all, I could make the case very easily that it is not.
Now, you’ve blamed my disbelief on a simple attitude problem, revenge against a mean christian, and simply believing everything Dawkins put in front of me at face value. What have you got next? Is it so hard to accept people simply see your book as no more than a bunch of fairy tales? Does it damage your faith so much that you have to strawman your way out of your own doubts?
Posted by Goon on December 11th, 2007btw, you again didnt rebut most of my responses about atheism being a lack of faith. you seem like a kind of apologist i encounter often on the web – throw a bunch of arguments, they get rebutted, and instead of fighting back you just move on to the next set of excuses.
so thats it? I point out that atheism is by definition is a lack of faith, and all I get is a ‘bravo’? Should I assume that the next person you argue with on some other site, you will STILL continue to call atheism a religion/faith, hoping that it works next time? is this how you work? Should I assume that anything I respond to will simply be ignored while you move on to the next wave? Because if thats what you plan on doing I’m calling you out on it right now.
“If you want to see my evidence and research I will gladly show it to you.”
“I am done trying to convince you”
Wow, you even contradict yourself.
“I will pray for you Goon, not for the sake of converting you, but for the sake of letting you see another side to God that you’ve never seen before.”
…and the difference is?
Posted by Goon on December 11th, 2007This has gotten old.
“Most of us have destroyed our belief in a creator because man has told us how things sould be without consulting the great Inventor himself.”
Destroyed our belief? Were you born with belief in God? What a pathetic statement. Your insane analogy makes me sick.
JT, your ignorance destroys my belief in a future worth living in.
“I could give you all the scientific evidence and all the historical, and archeological evidence”
You mean something other than these children book analogies that so many christians seem to believe proves their gods existence beyond debate?
Posted by Henrik on December 11th, 2007James Brown>Jesus
The above equation is mathematically correct.
Posted by doug nagy on December 12th, 2007at least James Brown had the courtesy to stay dead for my sins.
Posted by Goon on December 12th, 2007Now you’ve completely taken me out of context. Just like you’ve taken the Bible out of context. So lets take the Bible out. In fact lets take everything else out too. Consider other writtings such as the Koran, Hindu, Islam, and other religions. When you come aginst God you come against all of those who believe. So lets talk about Divine Intelligents. You’ll probably never understand our faith and beliefs, so lets put science to the test. I can throw scriputes at you all day long, but thats what everyone else does. So lets get down to scientific facts. I want to see your scientific facts about why evolution is valid, and why the posibility of Divine Intelligence can’t exist. I’m short on time so i’ll be brief. Show me, and I’ll see whether you’re claims are valid or if your just full of it.
Posted by JT on December 12th, 2007Here you are again demanding things, when I’ve already stated that the onus was on you. But you don’t like honoring our talk and being put to the test, so you want to divert and put science to the test…
And here you are again ignoring our points and just moving on to the next set of questions because our responses to the last set don’t suit you. I openly told you already this was not going to fly.
You are a troll. We gave you plenty of arguments and plenty of opportunity to converse, but its clear you don’t have any respect at all for anyone else to bother replying to our points.
If by some rare chance you actually DO care about learning about evolution, I may direct you to the Evolution wiki at http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Main_Page
I (and I imagine this goes for Henrik as well) have no intention on talking to you further until you are willing to discuss your original questions which I have already responded to. I love how you mention you are “short on time” as some sort of excuse for not making any effort.
btw, God told me to tell you to learn to spell. Seems like you fell off a bike a couple times.
Posted by Goon on December 12th, 2007Fair enough. It seems your bent on disprooving Christianty, so we’ll take about that. Since you don’t know anything about science and have to refer me to a web site, we’ll talk about the real issues here. Your definition of atheism a lack of belief in God. The root word is “a” meaning against, and “Theism” the study of God. You can’t be against something if you don’t first acknowledge that it exists. That’s like saying I don’t believe in air, or wind. But you can see the effects of both! I have heard all the claims that atheists make, and no claim that they make against God is ever valid evidence. The belief of atheism is the belief of idiots! All you do is take a side and verify you own personal view on someone elses evidence, rather that search it out for yourselves. I challenge you to look at the evidence from a biblical worldview, instead of taking everything the Bible says out of context. For me to give you evidence about the existance of God is like giving a baby a set off tools. They have no idea how to use them. I’ll give you your proof.
Posted by JT on December 14th, 2007“The root word is “a†meaning against, and “Theism†the study of God.”
The root word of “a” is for absence, dumbass. Just as asexuality = absence of sexuality. you can use the word “a” in these contexts as you would “non” – non-theism, non-sexuality, etc. – and Theism isn’t the study of God, its the belief of deities or divinities. Theres a huge difference. Many atheists have great interest in studying religions and deities, both ones currently believed in, and dead religions like that of the ancient Greeks/Romans.
“All you do is take a side and verify you own personal view on someone elses evidence”
The whole point of science is to adapt theories as new evidence comes in. Religious dogma has the answers first and everything has to revolve around its preset conclusions.
You can’t even get the basics right.
Posted by Goon on December 14th, 2007“I challenge you to look at the evidence from a biblical worldview”
When you take the Biblical worldview, you immediately throw out evidence and give the bible authority over facts, rather than letting the facts lead to your conclusions.
Here we get to the circular logic of
“How do you know the Bible is true”
“Because its the word of God”
“how do you know its the word of god?”
“Because its says so in the Bible”
thats not evidence. Thats retarded. You give yourself a license to be naive and gullible.
I grew up raised by somewhat religious parents and a very religious extended family. I’ve read the Bible. I went to church until I left my parents house. I’ve looked at the world from the “biblical worldview” and decided it was full of shit. But I guess all you’re going to say in response is that I didnt REALLY believe, right? A nice convenient excuse if there ever was one.
Posted by Goon on December 14th, 2007I grew up in a reasonable environment. My parents’ parents believed in god because they lived in a time where education was hard to get. Education in my country is encouraged to the point where the government pays you money in cash to educate yourself. And nobody except a few secluded idiots believe religion is something other than a joke here.
Reason and common sense are the enemies of god. God is the enemy of human progress. Nothing we can discover will ever be accepted if it does not prove the existence of the magic overlord that created shit, sharks and clouds.
JT, Fuck you. You are a pathetic piece of human trash that has no thougts worth acknowledging. I can’t believe ignorance like yours actually exists.
Posted by Henrik on December 14th, 2007“Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence.”
According to the book of Genesis God spoke and stuff appeared. Whatever the theory of how the universe came to be creation always point to Divine Intelligence (D.I.) Some stoics have even argued that if the word was created by chance that would like in a card game turning over aces 400 times out of 400, or splashing paint on a canvas, and creating the face of the pagan god Venus, or a pig digging in the mud turning up the letter A, but could he turn up an entire sentance. My argument is this. Darwin prooved his theory that of the origin of species to some extent. What he failed to do was proove where the disign came from. You can’t proove Macroevolution, the idea that we evolved from a single celled organism into a higher species is contadicted by nature. Any attempt to change or mutant anything in our bodies would proove dratic and even fatal. Example, growing extra limbs, changing our form from say an animal to an intelligent being. Creation needs certion things in order to survinve lacking any one of these would not sustain life on earth. Consider water carrying nutrients to all plant life and life in our bodies, consider oxygen as a necesity for us to breathe, consider or location in the galaxy, if were were not in our spific location we could not explore the possibility of other galaxies, consider how life has the ability to sustain itself. Who gave it that ability? Where does it come from? You don’t question the fact that you need air to breathe, even though you can’t see it, you still know that it’s there. You have to consider that possibility Goon. Faith is the assurance of things accounted for, and the evidence of things not seen. You can explain where oxygen comes from, but you can’t explain its origins.
Posted by JT on December 17th, 2007The evidence for Jesus Christ has already been prooved. A journalist named Lee Strobel wrote two books called the Case for Christ, and the Case for a Creator. If you want to know truth you must seek it out. Lee Strobel was a skeptic, and wanted solid proof in what the Bible claims as history. He did what most of you atheists never dreamed of. You just want to hear a humanists’ point of view. not someone elses.
His wife became a Christian. And instead of debating and arguing with her, he actually noticed a change in her life. Yes, I’ll admit that for a humanist this isn’t evidence enough to proove the existance of God. So he did some research. Something very few atheists I know are willing to do. He approached the bible with a very skeptical point of view. When someone is on trial you need all the facts right? So he interviewed both biblical scholars, and archeologists, and other researchers and scientists (who might not believe in Jesus) to find out the real history behind Jesus and the Bible.
If reason and common sense are the ememies of God Henrik. Then why don’t you gather more facts and research these books yourself? The Bible is filled with religious crap right? Then why don’t you research it yourselves, instead of believing some humanist professor that only gives you his own opinion rather than actual fact?
If I’m human trash, then what does does that make you, if we all come from the same compost heap?
Posted by JT on December 18th, 2007We are both part of the governing string of monkeys. But you’re a pathetic example of our race. You have thrown away your ability to think for yourself, explore new possibilities and further the knowledge of our society.
Saying that I can not explain creation, is not proof that some random explanation may be right. I might as well believe the pink oracles of the kinku universe created man, because I can’t explain beyond any doubt how evolution works and why it is true.
Posted by Henrik on December 18th, 2007So the first thing you do JT, is use Genesis as evidence. As I said already, this can only go towards circular logic. I wont explain the process again.
You chose a couple theoretical Jesus books ignoring that there is absolutely NO contemporary account of Jesus’ life from the time he lived. You can’t even spell “prove” let alone understand what it takes to prove anything. You can’t even spell “design” let alone prove why Darwin is required to explain a designer.
“Who gave it that ability?”
Because of your Biblical worldview you default to this question of “who” instead of “what” or “how” – it again all comes back to your failure to understand the scientific method, that facts lead to answers, not the other way around.
I wouldn’t outright call you human trash, but you’re clearly a dumbass. I don’t give a shit how good your intentions are, your standards for ‘truth’ are warped beyond any plausible recognition.
I’m somewhat familiar with Lee Strobel. His line of logic is amazingly full of shit. He goes to great lengths to disqualify “naturalists” because they are his definition of “politically correct” – being able to test your theories and predictions is the first rule of science, and Strobel shows it no regard.
People like yourself and Strobel clearly operate on the idea that if you can show any part of evolutionary theory to be incomplete (and it is – thats the beauty of science, constnatly learning NEW Things and adapting the theory instead of retrofitting it), then it means that their alternate theory is true. Thats lunacy. Strobel paints himself a ’skeptic’, which doesnt make it any more true than putting a ‘dog’ sign on a cat.
Posted by Goon on December 18th, 2007Evolution might sound just as superficial as someone that believes in God. Evolution says we went from goo, to zoo, by way of you! Christianity says there is a personal(invisible) God that creaded everything. While you might not be convinced that Christianity is right, you are still limited and restricted to knowledge on spiritual matters. You can see the beauty in creation, but you dismiss the idea of the supernatural. The God of this world (Satan) has blinded your mind. That’s all I’m going to say. Believe it or not; we all have the freedom to believe what we want. Only time will tell, when your dead and in the grave and have nothing. I’m sad for you both.
Posted by JT on December 19th, 2007I’m just glad the society I live in has grown beyond people like you.
Posted by Henrik on December 19th, 2007“You can see the beauty in creation, but you dismiss the idea of the supernatural.”
Again you go to this default ‘creation’ as if we acknowledge it as such. I’m willing to believe any supernatural thing so long as evidence presents itself. Which it doesn’t. Period. You act as if we have seen evidence but simply stuck our fingers in our ear and looked the other way.
…and now you bring Satan into it – a nice last resort – can’t win an argument? default that anything opposed to your gullibility is simply some dark evil deceiver here to win your soul. Its so cute christianity came up with these failsafes to protect itself from rationality.
Sad for us? I’d say I’m sad for you because you dont realize you have one promised life, and chose to live it in preparation for another – but really dumb gets what dumb deserves.
Posted by Goon on December 19th, 2007…and once again btw, we have responded to your points only to find you moving on and diverting to a new line of (non) reasoning.
Posted by Goon on December 19th, 2007George Bernard Shaw is perhaps most renowned as a free thinker and liberal philosopher. In his last writings we read, “The science to which I pinned my faith is bankrupt. Its counsels, which should have established the millennium, led, instead, directly to the suicide of Europe. I believed them once. In their name I helped to destroy the faith of millions of worshippers in the temples of a thousand creeds. And now they look at me and witness the great tragedy of an atheist who has lost his faith.” Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God.
Heywood Broun
Posted by JT on December 21st, 2007What a sad excuse for a life!
According to the teaching of our Lord, what is wrong with the world is precisely that it does not believe in God. Yet it is clear that the unbelief which he so bitterly deplored was not an intellectual persuasion of God’s non-existence. Those whom he rebuked for their lack of faith were not men who denied God with the top of their minds, but men who, while apparently incapable of doubting him with the top of their minds, lived as though he did not exist.
John Baillie
Posted by JT on December 21st, 2007Here we are again, with you instead of addressing points, diverting to yet another line of working.
Again we’ve told you if you wanted to prove something, go right ahead – but instead of actual scientific proof, what we’ve openly said we are looking for, you trot out nothing but quotes and random analogies. God either exists or doesn’t exist, period – If Richard Dawkins changes his mind about God tomorrow it wouldn’t make one appear.
I have a question for you, JT? What made you decide you believed in god? Or did you even decide? Did you become a christian BEFORE reading the bible or AFTER? are you the same denomination as your parents?
Would you actually answer these questions or are you just going to move on to the next set of shitty quotes? is Pascals wager next? Do you have ANY desire to converse at all? Or are you just going to preach?
Are you actually trying to convert anyone, or is it what I think it is? You desperately grasping at straws to prove it to yourself?
Posted by Goon on December 21st, 2007I believe in God for a number of reasons. For Sociological(culture, society, helping others), Psychological(comfort, peace of mind, hope, purpose), Religious(scripture, church family, Pastor), but most importantly Philosophical(consistency, coherence, completeness; best explanation of all evidence). Philosophy meaning finding truth through logic, evidence, and yes even science!
I had a church background much like yourself. And I have seen the good and bad in Christianity. As far as denominations, I am not part of any. It’s not an issue, much like asking you if you are a atheist who knows for certain there is no God, or one that says I don’t know if there is a God. Or are you an agnostic? What kind? An ordinary agnostic(who says he doesn’t know anything for sure or an ornery one(who says he can’t know anything for sure)? Or are you a Darwinist, who believes in natural law, or a Materialist, or Evolutionist? All point to a logic that leaves God out. Just like any church denomination that includes God in their knowledge.
This is not a debate of science verses religion. This is a debate between good science and bad science. As you have argued the case of faith. How do we know the bible is true? How do we know christianity is right? Who are we, where do we come from, and where are we going? All questions we don’t know, but use faith to believe.
You never acknowledged the fact that you need faith to believe in something like Darwinism, or natural law. I’m not talking about religious faith, I’m talking about believing something that you don’t know is certain.
Example
1. Scientific evidence confirms that the universe exploded into being out of nothing. We say someone created something out of nothing. Atheism says no one created something out of nothing.
2. Dawkins even saw that the simplest life forms contain information equivalent to 1,000 encyclopedias. We believe an Intelligence created this. While atheist say nonintelligent natural forces did it.
Here’s science without the bible, and with out my personal worldview. Check it out.
The second law of Thermodynamics says that the earth is running out of usable energy. Things break down and fall apart. The earth had a begining, and science has confirmed that it will come to an end. Much like a car running out of gas.
The universe is expanding. Confirmed by scientist Edwin Hubble(inventor of the Hubble Telescope). Galaxies are expanding into empty space.
Radiation from the Big Bang. The discovery of radiation, as an after glow effect of the beginning of a created world. By Arno Penzias, and Robert Wilson.
Great galaxy seeds. Ripples showing the explosion and expansion of the universe; precisely tweaked to cause just enough matter to congregate and allow galaxy formation, but not enough to cause the universe to collape back on itself.
Einstein’s theory of General Relativity. An absolute beginning for time, space, and matter and how these are corelative.
Robert Jastrow founder of NASA’s Goddard Institute of space studies, an agnostic by the way says this, “Now we see how the astronomical evidence leads to a biblical view of the origin of the world. The details differ, but the essentials elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same; the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy.”
Posted by JT on January 3rd, 2008“You never acknowledged the fact that you need faith to believe in something like Darwinism, or natural law.”
You are responding to posts/claims I ever made, and thusly, you are excused. You don’t acknowledge my actual points. You deserve a kick in the face for strawmanning your way out of a corner and distorting the meaning of words. Anything more you write will not be read, I suggest you move on to the next person dumb enough to give you a chance at an actual conversation.
Posted by Goon on January 3rd, 2008